Episode 25: Men Age Too

Speaker 0 00:00:03 Hi, and welcome to does this make me look old, a podcast about aging as gracefully as possible when you're just not ready for two 40 something year old friends will find themselves kind of straddling that really odd period of time when aging and everything that is associated with is starting to become a much bigger part of our lives. We're definitely curious, but at the same time, rather terrified about aging. I'm Schiff. I'm a health science nerd and pop culture themes, and I'm sin and adults waiting obsessed with finance and self-help books. We're going to be talking about the stereotypes of aging and how they affect us. And we'll also be doing some deeper dives into some interesting topics, such as what it's like to get old in the society dating when you're older and scientific advancements in anti-aging products and even evolution and scientific thinking around aging and throughout it all we chat rant laugh about or adulting mishaps of which there are so, so, so many. So join us as we navigate our second quarter-life crisis. Hi, welcome to this week's episode of does this make me look old? So we have a very special episode this week. Um, we are going to be talking to, uh, three of our friends about, um, what it means for them to get older. So, um, without further ado, um, let's introduce the fellows. Um, so I don't know who wants to kick it off, but, uh, I'm just going to go one by one. So, um, Jason, did you want to give us a little bit of an intro? Sure. Speaker 1 00:01:38 I'm Jason. Um, I am 50 years old. I work in technology innovation and I have a science and engineering background. I'm not entirely sure what else is relevant, but, uh, I suppose I'm a second generation immigrant. Um, my parents immigrated to Canada. They're Chinese Canadian and my sister and I were born here. I don't know if that covers it. Speaker 0 00:02:04 Yeah, that's really good. Um, thank you. And then, uh, Liam. Speaker 2 00:02:10 Yeah. Uh, hi, my name is Liam. Um, I'm 41 years old. Um, I'm a software, uh, professional, uh, software developer that does more, I guess, more managerial slash leadership stuff as I'm maturing in my career. Uh, I have two young boys, a three-year-old and a seven-year-old. Um, yeah, I guess that's, I think relevant probably as I reflect upon aging, et cetera. Speaker 0 00:02:43 Sounds good. And Craig, um, Speaker 3 00:02:46 Hi, my name is Craig. Um, I'm 40. I work in like accounting and finance fields and yeah, so I sit down a lot during the day and then try to stay active after the Workday. Speaker 0 00:02:59 Thanks guys. So just to give a little bit of that context, because, um, the reason it's extra special obviously is because this is the first time we're actually having our, um, male friends join us so that we can actually learn about the, you know, their perspectives on getting older, um, you know, Shiv and I were chatting about it the other day and we're like, oh my gosh. You know, we always w you know, we bring a very personal perspective to it, but, um, given the number of different topics we've covered, have you thought it would be very interesting to sort of hear what you guys think about some of those, um, kinds of issues that we've talked about so far? So one of your, I guess, first questions to kick it off is, um, do you guys actually ever think about this issue at all? Like, are, do you guys, there are times when you feel old and if you do, like when did that start for you? Speaker 4 00:03:59 Yeah, I, Speaker 1 00:04:00 Um, it's kind of interesting because when you ask, if someone feels older, I think, I guess there's probably a lot of different ways to, um, parse that question or think about what that means in terms of, you know, just as a gut reaction response. Do I feel older? No, I, I probably feel the same way. I think that I felt when I was, you know, a 17 year old teenager. Um, but I know I'm getting older. I don't know if that's the same thing. Speaker 0 00:04:31 I think I'm with you on that one. I think I'm stuck at 27, so 10 years older, but you know, still there. Yeah. It just reminds me of that saying where it's like, where they tell you to act your age, but you've never been this age before, so how can you really act it, right. Yeah. So, so what you're saying to us, Jason, is that, um, you don't feel your age. You just feel the same as you always have. Speaker 1 00:04:58 Well, I think that from a consciousness point of view, I don't feel like I'm a different person or something like that, but clearly, you know, we all age and that impacts us differently. I mean, I feel older when I try to do sports, the way that I did when I was younger and I, I, you know, I can't, but I also don't, you know, I think that when I was, let's say when I was 30, I probably felt like 50 was, you know, very far away and an older age. Certainly. Um, now that I'm here, I know that there's certain things that, you know, it's going to take me longer to recover from a, you know, athletic events or things like that. Um, but I guess this idea of feeling older is just something that, um, it has to have a context, I guess, for me to feel like there's some, there's some specific thing that makes me particularly feel old. Speaker 0 00:05:54 Thanks. That's actually a really nice perspective. It sort of reminds me not to take it seriously, but Liam, what, what do you think? Speaker 2 00:06:03 Uh, okay, so I'm going to go through this, uh, I guess piece by piece. Do I feel old? True. I'm gonna say, uh, um, I, I mean, I'm 41. I'm going to say, I feel like a 41 year old. Um, I feel like I've matured, um, you know, mentally, uh, and emotionally, and I'm honestly proud of that and I don't think it's a bad thing. Um, when did I, in terms of physically feeling older? I really, I would say probably the last couple of years, I would say I started to note, notice the sort of stiffness in the morning or kind of achy here and there. Um, you know, it's, it, it progresses slowly. I that's like, I think the first time of my life, I'm like, oh, geez. You know, I'm not going to stay young forever. You, you come to that, uh, realization. Uh, but, um, yeah, I would say like, I definitely, I mean, I guess to contrast with Jason, I guess I feel I am a different person than when I was, when I was, uh, you know, say 20 or, or 30, um, you know, I've changed over time and, um, uh, I'm comfortable with that. And I know, like I said, proud of that. I think it was a good thing for me. Speaker 0 00:07:24 Well, that's good. Um, and then I guess, Craig, you're the youngest out of this group, but like, how do you feel, do you actually, do you feel older? Speaker 3 00:07:33 I feel exactly one year younger than Liam, I guess. Yeah. I think they both touched on a couple things that, uh, that I, that I really think though is like kind of the two aspects of it. You've got like the more, the physical and then the kind of emotional or, or, or mental aspect of it. I, I think for me, physic from the physical side, I think, uh, Jason kind of touched on it recovery time. So I think when you're younger, you just recover from, I call it trauma, but really it's not necessarily trauma. It's more like, like a physical things that you do with your body. Um, and like, even if I cut myself now, it takes longer to heal. Just little things like that. Uh, you get sore easier, so you just need to kind of take care of yourself and listen to your body. Speaker 3 00:08:28 So if it's sore for a certain reason, then maybe just rest or something, but, uh, like more on the, on the mental side, I would, I would think I've matured a little bit as well. Like at the end of the day, I think I feel like I'm in my twenties, I think in my mid twenties, but then sometimes I don't feel like I'm in my twenties. So it's just trying to be realistic and just listen to your, listen to your body and keep learning from different life experiences. I think that's the benefit of age is kind of a collection of life experiences. And obviously the longer you're alive, the more life experiences you have to draw on. So I think that's where the mental or the emotional maturity kind of comes in a bit. Speaker 0 00:09:13 So, um, you guys can't see my expression right now, but I think I'm just a little bit in awe because Shiv knows this, like the grace that you guys are talking about of like aging, like the, the, about the topic, like the amount of grace you guys are showing about getting older. Yeah. I kind of feel a little bit embarrassed about you're so mature and wise and I'm like, I'm still struggling here to figuring out things out and they're like, you know, they've all three of you. What's amazing is, and maybe it's a gender thing. And this is when one of the things were shifted. You pick up on how all three of them answered it, very structured. Like there's the physical aspect, the mental aspect, you know, Liam broke it down into exactly the three questions, you know, Jason, like, it was just hilarious, like how you guys are so, you know, put together about the whole topic. Speaker 0 00:10:15 Uh, yeah, no, I mean, good on you guys. I'm, I'm impressed that, uh, you're, you're dealing with aging so, well, that brings me to a question that I'm curious about. So I like Miami speaking as a woman and I'm sure speaking as many women, like a lot of women feel this, uh, like I guess anxiety, like possible anxiety or just a little, um, or just like awareness of a potential biological clock, mainly because, you know, like, especially for women who have, um, the desire to have kids, like they, they know that there's only like a finite time in which they can actually do. So. So do you guys have that kind of anxiety or fear around things that might be like, um, like with, with regard to like a male biological clock? Like, has that, has there anything, has there been any sort of co Corolla for you guys? Absolutely. Speaker 2 00:11:15 I don't know if you were asking if you were gonna talk, I mean, I'll just jump in on that one thing that kind of, I just found interesting is that, um, for the first question, it was easy to answer because we were asked to reflect back on our life thus far, and I can say I've been happy with, you know, I matured, et cetera, but anxiety going forward. Yeah, absolutely. That's a different thing. Right. Um, when I was 30, I had anxiety about being 41. I'm 41. I have anxiety about being 50 and 60 or 70, you know, just, you know, the physical limitations, health effects, um, uh career-wise um, you know, mentally will I change, et cetera. Uh, you know, all those, all those, all those things. Um, so I, I can say is, yeah, I personally have anxiety about that. And another factor in that is, you know, with, I have two young kids, I mean, I'm, I'm re you know, responsible to take care of them for the next, at least 20 years or so. Speaker 2 00:12:20 And you worry about, um, guests, will I be around, will I be in good health? Will I be, you know, there's that, you know, uh, what if something happens to me, you know, all those kinds of things. So that's, that's definitely a big worry slash anxiety. Um, you know, both, uh, my wife and I were fortunate enough to have parents that, um, you know, were with us until we were, were, you know, adults. Uh, so, you know, that's, I guess a bit of a, of a fear slash anxiety, whenever there's some health effect that comes up, you're like, oh, is this, how is this going to impact, am I going to be able to take my kids canoeing in 20 years or something like that kind of thing. So, yeah, that's, for me personally, a definitely an anxiety factor, Speaker 1 00:13:07 I feel like there's, um, I feel like there's definitely gotta be some level of gender difference on the biological clock question. I mean, I think having lots of friends who are, who are women who have gone through that and, and, you know, my sister and other people, you know, certainly the, the, the whole phrase, biological clock has a very specific meaning for women. You know? I mean, it's, it's, at least it seems like, it seems like it's primarily around, you know, most of the time when people talk about that, they're talking about having children. Certainly I think for guys, because the PR there's less of a specific time pressure, I think on that. So I think that the idea, of course there is, you know, things that you can do or won't be able to do as much, you know, as you get older, like for me watching how my body changes or other things as I get older, and I've been through different things, you know, in my, in my thirties, when I got really, really busy with work, I got super out of shape. Speaker 1 00:14:18 And then in my forties, I tried to get back into shape. So you know, how the biological clock works for me, I think as a guy, I think the timing is more around what you can do. Like, I know I'm not going to be, you know, like a professional class athlete in anything now at 50, maybe like long distance running if I really put work or something, but it's, it's not specific as specific a question I think, around having kids. Um, because there's, there's, there's kind of like a less of, I guess, a specific, um, biological load on your body for that, uh, as a guy that, you know, and that just seems to be how, how the species works. Speaker 2 00:15:04 Yeah. I'd agree with you. And actually, I think, uh, Jason, like what I, when I asked my F like I never, from my male friends that are kind of in the 41 year old, like they're, you know, in that range where, uh, um, they're, you know, uh, if they were a woman, they would, their, their biological tick clock will be ticking very loudly at this point, but I don't get any anxiety about that point in their life, or is it too late to have children, et cetera, et cetera. I don't, I don't hear that. So I would actually, yeah. Yeah. I definitely agree with you on that. It's less definitive. Um, when you get close to the age of, of, is it too late to have kids, but Speaker 0 00:15:41 So you actually, you guys make an interesting point because, so, so what would like if, if you were to apply biological clock to you yourselves, what would come to mind? Speaker 2 00:15:56 Uh, you know, actually, uh, Jason touched on one thing that maybe, you know, he, he mentioned that the thing about is he going to, um, succeed as an athlete at this, at this age. And, and that kinda made me think that what the biggest thing anxiety for me is, is like, I'm not going to make it as anything in terms of like, being really successful. Like, you know what I mean, it's a bit too late to be ultra successful, you know, at a sport or, uh, even career wise, right? Like in the, and then that's not strictly true, of course, but if you want to be entrepreneurs, like I'm, I'm in the technology field, if you look at, you know, ultra successful entrepreneurials preneurs, or, you know, world changers, I mean, they did a lot of that stuff when they were younger. Most of them there, there are exceptions of course, but you're like, has, have I missed the boat on that? Speaker 2 00:16:46 Cause that was a big thing for me, you know, wanting to be an entrepreneur or, or, or make an impact or, you know, uh, and so I feel like for me anyways, in terms of that, um, like the success factor on this, um, you know, and I'm not talking to, you know, having sufficient income or anything like that, but just like, you know what I mean, like being wildly successful, that's probably, I wonder if that's a little bit of a, more of a male anxiety, you know, they're, they're, you know, uh, you know, you know, the quote unquote, are you going to make it right. Kind of thing. So that's a little bit of an anxiety for me, especially, you know, I'm just like, yeah, is it too late to head out and start a company? You know what I mean? I don't know. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't and I'm not sure. Speaker 0 00:17:31 Well, I mean, if we're looking for inspiration, um, Liam, uh, Colonel Sanders would be a good one. Speaker 1 00:17:40 Chicken. Yeah. It's probably a fast food thing. Right. Great. Kroc started really late with McDonald's too. Speaker 2 00:17:47 Maybe I'm just sitting in the wrong for this. Yeah. Speaker 0 00:17:51 It's funny. You should say this. And I would actually want to hear what Craig things as well, because recently a friend of mine made a comment where she said she wants to transition out of her career because she feels she's aging out of the it industry. That's the industry she works in. And so you touching on that exact topic just reminded me of, of this conversation I've had with her. So I'd love to come back to that, but I want to hear from Craig's point of view as well. Um, what do you think biological clock? What does it mean for you? Speaker 3 00:18:23 I think it's different for men and women. Like, uh, like women, you have like the like Liam or, sorry. Yeah. Liam or Jason mentioned. I can't remember which, but, um, you do kind of have the clock when it comes to like birth or having children and guys obviously don't have that wear and tear, um, or that, uh, yeah, they don't have that really. Like guys, you they've created like Viagra and all this other stuff. There's no, for women, there's no Viagra for women you'd have like menopause and things like that, that guys don't have to deal with. And yeah. So Speaker 0 00:19:03 When you go into the misogyny of that, but Speaker 3 00:19:08 I dunno, I think what Liam was saying, like, I, I, I kind of agree with like you, as you get older, you, you kind of start to wonder, am I running out of time to like be successful? Or am I aging out of being able to advance? I think like me personally, people think it'll sound like I'm bragging, but, um, people think that I'm younger than I am sometimes. So even at work, like people talk about they'll make comments to me. Like, like they think I'm in my early thirties, I think based on like what they say. And so you can kind of not really say anything back to that and they assume me, or you're younger. And then when, if people assume you're younger, I almost feel like they think you're smarter or more successful because if, if I'm at where I'm at now, and I'm 30, it's more, it's more impressive than if I'm at where I'm at now. And I'm 40. Speaker 2 00:20:10 Yeah. A hundred percent for sure. So Speaker 3 00:20:12 I think you do get viewed differently just, and that's just based on like, uh, like how old people think you are. Wow. Um, Speaker 0 00:20:21 I find like one of the biggest considerations when I'm going to bring gender into this again. Sorry. But, um, I feel like when girls are younger or women are younger, not girls, like, you know, in, in the, in their careers and they seem to have achieved a lot. They there's there's um, I don't know. There's a, some kind of, um, some, I guess the impression is a little bit different. Like I feel like they've, they have to sort of speak up differently or talk differently in order to be taken more seriously, especially in meetings and things like that. So it was just an interesting perspective to hear, um, Craig, uh, the, the idea of success and, and career advancements, uh, there, because I feel like for women, there's a, I don't know, like when I was younger, it was harder in some ways to be taken seriously. Uh, even when I had a point to make at work or anything like that. So it was just, that's Speaker 2 00:21:19 True for men too. And I think so. Yeah. If you're earlier on in your career, if you have more experience that carries more weight proposed genders, but I kind of agree with Craig though, that gets in, if you do see somebody who's advanced and they're younger, it's kind of impressive. Like, oh man, oh, kind of slightly intimidating because they have perhaps the experience or position, but they have the energy and the, you know, uh, you know, all the energy and raw power, you know, talent that comes with youth too. Right? Speaker 1 00:21:54 Yeah. I think I have to agree with the, the energy comp comment, which kind of goes back to health as well. Right? Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a combination when you're young, when you're younger, let's say in your early thirties. I mean, I think that there's a level of assumption around experience, uh, with, that comes with age. And I think that that's true across the board, uh, for men and women that as you get older, you, you know, people give you a little bit more benefit of the doubt because you've probably seen a little bit more life. And as I get older, I count that more as well. Um, you know, if I see someone who, you know, if I estimate that they're a little bit older, I give them a little bit more benefit of the doubt of, you know, maybe they've experienced some hardship in their life where they know somebody who has, which is actually a valuable set of experiences that influences their career. Speaker 1 00:22:50 Um, so they basically get a little bit more of a free pass than a young person. But if you do see a young person advanced to a more senior role, um, you, you, you balance that, I guess, against that other, that other part of the equation. But I, I think that, yeah, when you're young, it's frustrating because you have energy, but you, you probably, maybe you don't understand as much about the value of experience. So it's natural to feel like, you know, you're being discounted or something like that. And when you layer on gender issues or, uh, ethnicity and diversity issues, that that can be kind of a deadly combo, right. That when you're younger, you have both the energy, the observational skill, the, um, perhaps, uh, concern that, that, you know, someone's has a bias against you or something that can happen. Um, it's, it's more complicated, but as far as biological clock and age and career are concerned, for sure. I think the factors when people are young are they don't have as much responsibility probably, or maybe they don't have kids or whichever. So they just have more capacity to put more into their work. And that's a powerful forest when it's combined with, you know, oh, they've achieved some legitimacy by getting in early promotion or something like that. I think those factors are Speaker 0 00:24:17 Important. Yeah. So I actually have a question like, um, related to this, like, as, as you guys are getting older in your careers, like, do you feel that, or I'm just curious to know when your different industries w how ageism is in how ages it might impact your industries. Cause like, I mean, I'm just thinking about it from my, my point of view. Um, I mean, I have friends who, you know, like for various reasons were laid off, um, and in their respective industries and like, you know, getting back into the workforce, um, as a person who is older can be very difficult. So I was just curious to know, like, um, you know, I'm just looking at it from like a female point of view, just because these friends of mine are women. Like, do you feel that age-ism impacts men and women differently? Or are you worried about age-ism in your own industry and how it might impact your career? Um, yeah. Just curious to hear your thoughts. Speaker 3 00:25:19 Um, yeah. Like I I've know people that are later on in their career and I know that they they've been offered other roles. They, they currently have roles, but they have been offered other roles. So I think some of it just depends on like situation by situation and on the individual. Um, but overall I do feel like at the same time that if you're at a certain age, when you kind of, you're not retirement age, but you're close to retirement age or in the views of a hiring company, you're close to retirement age, then with all things being equal, you may get passed on, uh, over somebody younger, but I've never really witnessed that in person or necessarily known of a person in that situation that had that happen to them. Speaker 1 00:26:16 I, for me, I think it's definitely something that you're, you become more aware of as you get closer to those kinds of retirement ages. I mean, we're fortunate enough to work in Canada where, you know, we're protected by the human rights code where, you know, it's actually not legal for a company to be unfair about employment practices and, and for you to, uh, incur harm on the basis of age. Right. So there's that, but then there's all the pragmatic aspects of things, right? It's only natural for a company to want to offer to younger people who may have a longer career trajectory with that company, uh, a bigger opportunity or, you know, as people age, they become more experienced, which so you're trading off experience for energy and frequently the people who are more experienced are more expensive as well. So it's a complicated equation. Speaker 2 00:27:16 Jason is absolutely right. It is, it is that trade-off of, um, experience versus versus energy. And, you know, there's, I'm in the technology field. So obviously, you know, it's, I guess stereotypically very ageist and, and I think there is some ageism as I get older, actually, don't, it's not nearly as bad as they would've thought. Um, you know, um, and, um, you know, I'm not too, I think there's a, there, there, there, you know, as you mature in your career, different, um, positions, uh, you know, um, tend to open up for different age groups, for example, you know, senior managers or salespeople for example, are often older individuals. Who've just decided, uh, you know, that they, that grunt R and D work isn't for them anymore, or they maybe can't compete at it. So I feel like, uh, different career opportunities open up and I rarely see that people actually can't find a place in it, especially because they have a whole wealth of experience to draw from. Speaker 2 00:28:25 But I do feel like you need to be a little adaptable. I've also seen the scenario where people aren't able to adapt in the, in the sense that like, okay, I mean, you know, this stereotypical, you know, frontline coder type position who is, you know, tends to be dominated by, uh, younger people, because, you know, what's required of you is, uh, you know, raw time, talent, you know, you know, uh, intellectual stamina, um, creativity, those types of things. Uh, I have seen older individuals truly not be able to compete. Um, and, and, and just not willing to adapt, but, but there's so many other, uh, you know, uh, roles like you often, you know, mentors or, uh, you know, uh, like I said, more managerial roles or other leadership roles or sales roles, marketing, lots of other places where people have adapted and, and who've, you know, maybe have just accepted the fact that they can't compete in that rat racy type role, which it is about raw, you know, raw talent and not much else. Speaker 1 00:29:34 It's interesting you say that Liam, because I think, I think that, that, that kind of hits upon a couple of points, which do definitely you from an age point of view, um, you know, this concept that, uh, of competition in individual contribution, I think there are a lot of times when I see, uh, friends and colleagues, you know, at, at my age 50 plus maybe 60 plus, where they're starting to, you know, starting to see that maybe there isn't as much time left for other pursuits that they might want to do. So the relative level of investment they want to make in their career isn't as high, which may be the source reason behind why someone may not be as so-called competitive in that space. Um, so, so to some extent, you know, if you're older and, you know, your, you know, let's take software development and, you know, you can, you can do that work. Somebody wants you to learn, you know, three new software development languages and a new framework. And, you know, it's a big investment because you're really good at something. Do you really want to do that? Um, and become as expert in that there, your level of investment or desired level, uh, your desire to invest in a whole bunch of new stuff, particularly at the very end of your career, maybe less, or, you know, people might just be thinking, no, I don't want to spend all my weekends and evenings helping you rush to your deadline. Speaker 2 00:31:05 You pay for Speaker 1 00:31:06 My time during work. And, and so there's a, there's a bit of a function depending on the industry, around how much people are willing to put in all those extra hours. And there's some debate as to whether or not it's a fair thing to ask people to do that. Um, so I, I think that factors in, but one other point I wanted to bring into it was that in terms of age-ism, I think one of the challenges that I see also is that, you know, a lot of people, particularly in the technical industry that I work in, they either track into management or they track into kind of being a technical guru. And, um, there's basically the problem with tracking or career into management is that the number of roles and how hi Lee, how much you can advance become more and more limited as you get older. So there's some level of expectation around, oh, you're this age, you know, why haven't they reached whatever director level, VP level by a certain age. And if that's the case, then that can feel quite punishing. Uh, because I think in our society, the expectation is that you continue to rise and guess what, there's way fewer positions that you can rise to then the number of people available at any given age. So, so that definitely impacts things. If you go down that track. Speaker 2 00:32:25 Yeah. I mean, it's, it's hierarchical, right? I mean, there's, there could be a hundred engineers in one CTO, you know, or see what fo right. I mean, it's definitely gets more and more limited. I do agree with you on the technical group. And that said part of about where I've seen people successfully adapt, um, that they, um, you know, you, like you said, become a guru, but you're, you're absolutely right, Jason, that a lot of times, um, when I, like I said, not people not wanting to compete in the rat race and maybe that comes with wisdom and they're just like, it's just not worth it. Like, I mean, not maybe even if you, you know, often people can do it, they're just, just not willing and have probably learned that it, it, it's not worth the breath of payoff or worth the investment for sure. Speaker 0 00:33:14 So this work-life balance, um, it does sound like, you know, it just comes with experience, right? Like you've experienced, you've given it all, and now you're starting to recognize, you know, which returns are more worth it than not. Um, if you were given a chance to sort of do a, get a do over in your careers, um, let's start with careers first and then maybe life, but what, what would you do differently? Speaker 3 00:33:44 Yeah. I think looking back you, or at least from my, for me, I'm always like, could I have done something differently that I would be at a higher level now? Or, um, yeah, I think that's kind of how I look at it. And then if I was getting later in my career, like, I, I, I agree with what Liam and Jason were saying kind of about the whole rat race thing, because to me, like, as you get further, along in your career, if you, if, uh, life is more important to you on a work-life balance scale, and you're kind of financially set, then it gives you more flexibility. But I think I've seen people where, you know, they're getting to the end of their career or closing in the end of their career. And they're still, they're still a lot like on the work side of the work-life balance. And it could be because of financial reasons too, even though they don't necessarily want to. So I think that plays a factor too sometimes where people just kind of keep on because they think they need to. Um, but hopefully, hopefully I won't get to that point where I just do the work side of the work-life balance more just because I need to, but yeah, you never know where everybody's situation is different. Speaker 3 00:35:07 True. What about you, Jason? Speaker 1 00:35:12 Um, on the redo question, uh, I was just thinking about what Craig was saying around the work-life balance thing. I mean, I did want to emphasize something on that as well, which is that I think, you know, there are people who are older, who are working as hard as they were working when they were 30 and more efficiently too. And, and these are the people who get to the top of the game or they end up being CEO or, or, you know, lead companies. Um, and, and some of this is just that, that shakeout of what happens when only one person can get that one role that oversees a hundred people. Um, and then the other is, you know, make different choices and, and, and I think it's respectful ways to go in each way, but kind of going back to the redo question, I, I don't really feel a lot of that myself. Speaker 1 00:36:05 I made a pretty conscious choice, you know, many years ago, probably decades ago now to simply try to make the best decisions I could at knowing what I know, and then kind of forgive myself going forward for those decisions. Um, you know, you make a decision and then there's a consequence and, uh, hopefully you learn from that. But I personally feel like, you know, you can burn a lot of cycles looking back and thinking, I wish I did this differently, or I wished I had did that differently. I found that it's helpful to simply say, okay, at any given point, have I looked at, you know, have I looked at the situation as best I could and consulted the people and friends that I trust and try to make the best choice I can. And that way, if I know I did that, then later when I look backwards, I don't have to think, oh, you know, I should have done something different because then you can be confident that you tried to do the best you could at that moment, and then forgive yourself for things which maybe turned out to be mistakes. I, I don't know that there's a, uh, another, I've found that to be a healthy way to live. Let me put it that way. Speaker 0 00:37:17 What about you, Liam? Have you found anything that you might look wrapped or want to change? Speaker 2 00:37:22 Um, you know, I think ironically as I, even though I have more, um, I guess more financial obligations now, uh, and less of a runway ahead of me, I'm actually more, um, risk tolerant, or less risk adverse than I used to be. I wish one of the regrets I, I, I have is that when I was younger and, uh, you know, cause it had very little financial obligations, I just felt pressure to, you know, find a job, get into a career path, et cetera, et cetera. When in reality, reflecting back on it, I, I just had so much, you know, there were so many possibilities I could have done anything. You know what I mean, in, in terms of just, um, you know, like with some of the examples would have been starting a company or, you know, anything, you know, writing, uh, you know, uh, writing a screenplay, I don't know, trying my hand at stand up comedy. Speaker 2 00:38:18 You don't know all the, all these things that could have happened that, um, I never tried it and it was primarily out of fear of okay. You know, and that's part of how you're raised too. I mean, okay. You know, I need to find a stable career, a stable job, et cetera, et cetera. And, uh, you know, now that I'm 41 and I have two kids and like I said, financial obligation is a big thing. I, I can't say, Hey, Hey dear, do you mind if I, if I take a year off and try my hand at stand up comedy or something like that, it's just not an option. So that's one of my biggest regrets is I didn't even just try these things when I had the opportunity to, um, and maybe that opportunity will come again, you know, um, you know, that's one of the good things about, um, getting older is, uh, hopefully you, you, you get more financial stability and, you know, I think some of the happiest and luckiest people, I know where those who've either been good with their finances or, you know, for whatever situation, but had the financial freedom at, you know, not before, you know, whether it's still relatively, uh, you know, young, even in your sixties or fifties or sixties to, to say, you know what, I don't have to work day-to-day I can do something, uh, you know, uh, sale the sale the world for a year or a certain amount sail around the world for a year, or, um, and I'll try my hand at painting. Speaker 2 00:39:45 I don't know, but that's also something to look forward to is that, uh, you know, if you're, if you manage to be lucky enough to get into that category where you aren't feeling the day-to-day pressure of finances, that you have that opportunity again. So, you know, I regret, but also maybe a not future opportunity to know. Speaker 0 00:40:05 So I'm curious. It was just because like, of what you were saying about, you know, your friends being able to pursue, you know, things that they want, that they enjoy doing without the financial repercussions of it. So I'm just curious, like, do you approach time differently now as you age? Like have any of you yeah. I'm just curious to know whether or not how you approach time in your twenties versus now. Um, or do you have plans in, um, I don't know, scaling back later on or, yeah, I'm just curious Speaker 2 00:40:40 How I budget my time. Like, I mean, Speaker 0 00:40:43 Or just how you think of time. Like, I think like in my twenties, I thought to myself, like I had endless amounts of time to do all sorts of decisions. Right. And so like now that I'm in my forties, you just realize that like, that you don't really have that much as much time left, as you thought you did when you were in your twenties. And that, you know, like at least in my situation, like illnesses can come up and, um, you don't necessarily have as much time that you can spend with other people and whatnot. So like you, you portion out your time differently nowadays. So like, do you, do you find that or are you just approaching time as you did when you were in, like, who were younger? Speaker 2 00:41:24 Ironically, I think I know what you're saying, obviously this sense that we have a finite amount of time and to make the most of it, ironically, when I was younger, I used to, uh, I know, sort of think a lot more worry a lot, but more whether I was wasting time, but actually ironically as I get older and have less time, I, I fret less about it, whether or not am I using it to the best of it in my am I using it to the best of my abilities am my maximizing. I don't. I found that in of itself to be a waste of time. So I actually don't, I don't think there's such thing as wasting time rarely. That's another thing that I, I guess I've come to learn over. I'm not truly waste of time, but, um, you know, I've, I've come, it's, it's, it's, it's a hard thing to measure. Speaker 2 00:42:13 What's a waste of time and what's a nod. And are you spending it actually, um, you know, this whole notion that even the BDS presents us, like, are you living life to the fullest? Like I, you know, to make it sound as though if I haven't, uh, traveled to at least 10 countries in the past year that I'm somehow not living life to the fullest. And I think that's kind of a little bit foolish. There's so many aspects, uh, to life in terms of living it fully. Um, so many experiences that, um, it it's, it's hard to say whether you're not, whether you're you're wasting time or not. Um, yeah, Speaker 1 00:42:49 I think, I think you're right, Liam. I think that there's an operational aspect in a way kind of like, you know, the choices that you make about how you're going to spend time, day to day, week to week, month to month. Um, but I think that there's also the perception of time, which, which is, I guess, a piece of the question, which I do think that your perception of time changes particularly around, um, I've found through the decades, you know, your appreciation of how much time at your perception of time definitely changes. You know, I think in your twenties, uh, your life seems like it's all fully ahead of you. Right. And not, I don't, but I don't think that it's also this idea that all of a sudden it's like, um, it's like mortality, uh, you know, hits you in the face or something like that. Speaker 1 00:43:40 I think there's an element of that, but I think it's more for me at the stage of life I'm in now. Um, I definitely think more about the number of years that I have, you know, with parents, with children, with, um, you know, friends. And it was one of the, one of the points I think, at which I started to perceive time quite differently was when I was seeing that, you know, I've spent probably, I probably, I'm probably at the point where I'm two thirds of the way through my professional career. Right. And that's, that's pretty different, right. When you start at the beginning, it's really, you know, kind of where you want to get to, you know, which is frequently relative to where you are, but now it's a little bit more around, what do I want to get done before I retire? You know, even for me, I'm not planning to retire for another, probably 15 years. Speaker 1 00:44:38 Um, but I'd have the job that kind of allows me to do that. But, um, I think more in terms of what are the few, you know, there's, there's big strategic projects, which take a long time to do so I, those will take longer and I probably only have a couple of those left, you know, two or three big things to achieve. Um, so that's one aspect and then the other is just making sure, you know, I'm fortunate enough. My, my parents are a little bit older and they're still with us, but I'm definitely aware that there isn't that much more time that they're going to be around, you know? Um, and certainly I think for those who have kids, it's really different when your kids are young, uh, like, uh, the age that Liam's kids are, or, you know, I have a lot of friends whose kids are in their teenage years are leaving the nest or whichever. And, uh, and yeah, so I think there's a, definitely a difference in the perception of time. Speaker 2 00:45:36 Interesting. Did you have any, Speaker 3 00:45:41 Yeah, I guess for me time, like, I don't think I view it that much differently. Um, like I kind of use time as I'm, as I'm getting older, there's certain things that I won't be able to necessarily do as a get like into my seventies and eighties. Like there are certain things I might not physically be able to do, but other than that, like, I, I don't, I don't really think about it that much. Like I, I think it's part of it is because I still think I feel younger than I really am. And maybe it's like a, almost like a false sense of security or something, but, um, yeah, like I still, I still, I don't feel a lot different than I did when I was my thirties or even late twenties, other than some small things. So there, yeah. Like I still feel like there's lots of time and in some ways it's weird. Cause I, I do kind of project ahead and it's like, okay. So one of my grandparents, they, they weren't that old when they died. And then three of the, three of the four other ones, they were pretty old and one was like in her nineties. So it's like, then you kind of do do that type of thinking. And it's like, there's things that, but I think about it periodically, but it's not like something I really like stress about, but Speaker 0 00:47:03 Wow. That was a lot to unpack today. Yeah. That's a lot. Yeah. No, I agree. I think that, that was, uh, yeah, I feel like we need to sit with it a little bit and kind of unpack it on our own. It was interesting to sort of just hear this and I think honestly, uh, we need to, uh, probably call it an episode here. Yeah. So that we can come back and talk to them again and, and, and, you know, take it from there. But cause I'd love to hear, you know, some random thoughts on things that, you know, that they're looking forward to and, and, and like their attitudes towards like the physicalities of aging and things like that. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, but this is interesting. I actually feel like I'm going to replay this conversation. You're like, okay, what does that mean? Speaker 0 00:47:56 Um, but that's, what's fascinating. Thanks guys. Um, so, uh, I think with that, we'll, let's call it a episode this week. Yeah. And, um, uh, for our listeners out there feel free to, um, you know, hit us up on social media. We're on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, all that good stuff. And, um, and you can find all of those handles on our website. So that's um, does this make me look old.com? Correct. Um, yeah. So, um, thanks guys for joining us. We really enjoyed having you. Thank you. And, uh, we'll uh, again, next week. Sounds good.