Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:03 Hi, and welcome to does this make me look old, a podcast about aging as gracefully as possible when you're just not ready for two 40 something year old friends will find themselves kind of straddling that really odd period of time when aging and everything that is associated with is starting to become a much bigger part of our lives. We're definitely curious, but at the same time, rather terrified about aging. I'm Schiff. I'm a health science nerd and pop culture themes, and I'm SIM and adult and waiting obsessed with finance and self-help books. We're going to be talking about the stereotypes of aging and how they affect us. And we'll also be doing some deeper dives into some interesting topics, such as what it's like to get old in the society dating when you're older and scientific advancements in anti-aging products and even evolution in scientific thinking around aging and throughout it all we chat rant laugh about or adulting mishaps of which there are so, so, so many. So join us as we navigate our second quarter-life crisis. Hi, and welcome back to this week's episode of does this make me look old, where we come to the conclusion of our three-part chat with Taz, um, and biological clocks. Hi Shiv. Hey Sam, how's it going? I'm good. How are you? Good. I'm just excited. Like, oh my gosh. This is like, you know, the final,
Speaker 1 00:01:30 Um, the final chapter. I
Speaker 0 00:01:32 Know, chapter last week we spoke about, uh, career chat, like, you know, impacts on, on, on having kids. And, and you asked a good question last week on a free if egg donations and freezing eggs.
Speaker 1 00:01:48 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I, I was discussing this, uh, we didn't get to Dory. No, no. Which, which we get to finish this week. So we have a really interesting chat coming up. Um, yeah, so, and yeah, last week we also talked about climate change and the impact on the decision to have kids and things like that. So, so this week we're going to be talking about, yeah, we're going to wrap up the discussion on egg freezing. Um, I think you, you ended up talking about you having, having young parents and the impact of that on like you,
Speaker 0 00:02:22 Um, know what though I realized I never actually mentioned that it was really weird at some points because, um, especially like with my dad and my parent mom, like when I got to a certain age, people would think that my mom was my sister, but my dad was my partner.
Speaker 1 00:02:41 So, you know, oh yeah. We'll have to unpack that in a later
Speaker 0 00:02:46 The number of where that has happened. Terrifying, you mentioned that, um, when we chatted about this, but anyway, I'm like, I feel like a might have a field. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:03:10 Yeah. And then I get a bit science-y in this one, start talking about, um, genetic mutations and such. So it should be a very interesting episode
Speaker 0 00:03:20 For the record. Um, this was shift in her normal elements.
Speaker 1 00:03:27 Uh, I know basically explained my job very badly
Speaker 0 00:03:34 In almost every episode. You always, um, somehow either terrify me with one of your facts or, or you flabbergast me because I'm like, what? But it's fascinating every time. So
Speaker 1 00:03:55 That's awesome. I'm glad, I'm glad you're fascinated. Well, I mean, medicine is fascinating. I have to say so Well, welcome to my world. It is, it's like you oscillate between like sheer horror and like complete fascination,
Speaker 0 00:04:11 The ship's world and welcome to our world for this week. Um, and hope you enjoy the last step part three of biological clocks. So, so you remember, um, I had a doctor who was a little bit abrupt in her delivery of how she spoke about things. I don't know if you guys remember. Cause I was like a little bit traumatized anyway, this is like a few years ago around three, four years ago, which doctors? And, um, so it was like, right. Like I had found this person overall nice person, but there was just an abruptness to her. Um, you know, um, that was a little bit interesting, but anyway, she actually, um, told me about, uh, freezing my eggs and um, you know, was like, Hey, listen, you know, you're, I think I was like 36 at the time. Well, she was like, um, do it, do it now, you know?
Speaker 0 00:05:13 And just, um, she's like, I'm freezing my eggs and I'm just going to do it so that when I'm ready, you know, and I'm like, oh, okay. And I remember being taken aback a little bit, but at the same time, um, it was, yeah. I mean it was something to, you know, consider, but, uh, but you're right. Like I think had there been a little bit more like maybe, you know, some other additional information at the time, this was like so new to me. Um, I don't think I quite processed it quite as much, but, but, uh, but yeah, um, it was, that was the first time I actually heard about like it being like a mainstream possibility. Like it's not something that only, you know, few people can do. Yeah. Technically anybody can do it. It's just the thing is, is like, it is quite a pricey option.
Speaker 0 00:06:06 Exactly. Uh, and yeah, like, I mean like seriously, if, if women could, like, if, if women knew that they will probably like thinking about having kids, like in their thirties, like when, when they've kind of like complete a training for a career or they're more established in a career or whatever, and then, um, and freeze their eggs, like in their twenties, like basically you've got 20 year old eggs that you can use in your thirties that might have a better chance of getting, you know, like pregnant. Yeah. Like a, have a better chance of being viable. Right. So like, I mean, it just, yeah. I just, like, I personally think it should just frickin subsidize it and just allow everyone to have it. Of course this is if we fix the earth first, so you're not bringing kids into the world. So many ethics involved so much ethical.
Speaker 2 00:06:56 No, it's true. You know, I, I think, yeah. I remember hearing about, I same with same as SIM like hearing about egg freezing when you earlier, I mean, it's still sort of new now and we hope that the egg is viable for, I don't know how long it freezes and um, oh,
Speaker 0 00:07:15 Th they're they're good for quite a while. Like yeah. It's like multiple, multiple years. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:07:20 Yeah. So I think the first time when I had heard about it, it's like, oh, that's kind of cool, but also at the same time I'm hearing, oh, but it's a very painful process for a woman to do it because you have to go on fertility, produce the eggs and take it. So it is a right. It is quite the commitment, um, for someone to have, but you're right. I think it is a very, uh, viable choice because yeah. You know, you, you can confidentially say your eggs in the 20th of generally better. So you, as a woman, you have the fertility choice than say, okay, I want to, I can have a kid when I feel more settled and have more resources. Now it's true. Now being a parent of a three-year-old when you are 43. Um, I feel like, I know I would like to play a little bit of the devil's advocate because now, uh, so I did have my kids, uh, and my husband do, we had our stuff sorted out.
Speaker 2 00:08:20 We, you know, we're sort of financially stable. We felt like we did all the things we wanted to do. Then we had a kid. So in some ways it was good, but also at the same time, as our kids are becoming older and older, and now we're in our forties and we're waking up a little bit creaky in the morning. Um, we're also thinking, holy shit, like these kids are going to be teenagers and we're going to be in their, our fifties. Like I don't actually have the energy to do this. Like realistically that, I mean, maybe if you're a very fit and you're a fit 50 year old, that's great. Right. But, okay. We're not 50 yet, but realistically we're thinking that I'm like, huh. You know, by the time my kid is an adult, I would be quite old. It's entirely possible. I will never see my grandchildren because if the trend continues, my kid will have their kid. When they're 30, I'm not going to be around for that.
Speaker 0 00:09:22 It's a lot
Speaker 2 00:09:23 Of things into consideration. So I remember we were having this conversation before and we were thinking, huh? I mean, hypothetically speaking, we're like, how do we met in our twenties? Would we have had a kid that early? And I think he said, definitely I would have had, uh, I would have liked to be a young father because then I feel like then I would have a lot more energy. You know, you know, when my kid is tweens and is into sports or doing all these things, I would have that kind of, um, stamina. I may not, at that time, we may not have been that financially stable for, you know, provide a lot of things. But we would have like physical aspect, like purely by being young parents there. I mean, we're starting to see the advantage of people who are young parents, um, have a kid right after university happened to meet that I person happened to get married and happened to have a child when they were 22, 23. And, and sometimes you wonder, you know, maybe you can have someone like that on your guests, on your podcast and say, say that peanut. And I mean, I haven't spoken to people, um, I know who are young parents, but they seem to now have, uh, lots of time. They're like the kids are teenagers and you know, they're in the hard phase
Speaker 0 00:10:49 Play devil's advocate on this one. Um, yes, you would have energy, but would you actually be able to make the time if you are trying to get financially stable? Um, a lot of young people, um, you know, for example, put in a lot of long hours in their careers, um, you know, because they're trying to, um, get established or do things with, you know, uh, you know, I don't know, I'm just making this, I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but like, um, uh, you know, if they're, uh, maybe they're going to school and working, and if they're young parents as well, what, they actually really have the time they would have the physical energy, but would they actually have the time to put in with their kids and that's always the case. Right. So I'm, I'm just saying that, I don't know if that's possible. Okay. So I'm going to get devil's advocate. Yeah. Another devil's advocate. Um, there's like a chain link of advocacy. Anyways.
Speaker 0 00:12:10 I'm curious, it's funny that you say that because your parents really young when they had you. Yeah. So like, so like how do you feel about that as like being the child of young parents? So, um, I do, so my sister and I are like 10 years apart and I always joke that it was like two different sets of parents. Um, you know, um, so yes, on one hand, um, I think that, um, my, my parents and I'm saying this facetiously, but, um, yes, my brother, as opposed to her parents, um, you know, her parents were a lot more traditional in the sense that, you know, um, it was a right, almost the right age gap, right. Like they were in their late twenties, um, you know, and, or like early thirties, late twenties, uh, when, when she was born. And so she got a lot more of that traditional outlook of, I don't know, I can't explain it, whereas for me, um, my childhood was a little bit of a mish-mash, um, in the sense that yes, I spent a lot of time.
Speaker 0 00:13:22 I was the only kid in my parent's friend circle. So, um, I don't think I actually got, uh, uh, bedtimes and routines in life. Um, when I was growing up because I was the kid that literally my mom and my parents would take me when, whenever they went up and hung out at the friend's house or the friends would come over. And so I would be the kid in the corner or, you know, show drawing something and then going off to all my uncles and aunts and being like here, look, here's what I just did. And they'd be like, oh my gosh, you're like a genius. Right. And then they'd go back to like, whatever board game or whatever they were doing. Right. And so I didn't like, it was, it was different. Like they were energetic. Uh, but my dad would work till 7:00 PM.
Speaker 0 00:14:11 Like he, he wouldn't come home till late. Um, so my mom was a homemaker, so yes, I spent a lot of time with her, but my dad spent a lot of time at work and, you know, and then, and then they would come home and then they would take me out or whatever. And so I didn't actually, they weren't strict in terms of like bedtimes and you know, those kinds of things. Um, so I mean, there are pros and cons, but, um, and I think that's kind of one of the reasons I'm like, I'm bringing that up is because like, whereas with my sister, you know, my, they were a lot more, was a lot more routine of life, uh, when she was born, you know? Um, and, and, um, so yeah, it was just an interesting thing if that makes any sense, but yeah, I don't, I didn't actually like having young parents was kind of fun, but also as my mom jokes, like I was the experiment child because she didn't know what she was doing. So a lot of those things were like, okay, I guess that will work. Maybe let's just try, let's see what happens.
Speaker 2 00:15:27 Devil's advocate point that's SIM brought up about, uh, yes. You know, if you're not, if you have children very early, you're working really hard in your career. Um, you may not have the time. Uh, yes, but I also wonder if that's something that was true in our parents' generation because their life expectancy was shorter. They, they foresee that they would retire by 50 probably when they were young. So there was probably a need to be putting in more when you're 20, you must because it was all of it. They're like, oh, the idea in their head was always, oh, you get married in your twenties. Uh, you know, you started this company and you become, you know, you stay in this company and this is your career choice that you pick. So clearly you have to work very hard because now you have to have your support, your children, and then you retire by 50. But now I'm talking purely for now generation, this generation right now, that's not necessarily the case, like 20 year olds. Don't walk around thinking about, oh, I'm I want a managerial position. I want to be in a company that is going to keep you for 20 years.
Speaker 0 00:16:40 Well, because that doesn't exist. <inaudible>, they're all influencers, but they're working 24, 7
Speaker 2 00:16:53 They're influencers who have children and that's part of their gig. So I think all of the different worlds, it's a different world. I just, and I think in a way, our exercise, when we were talking about it was kind of thinking from our generation that, oh, you know, going forward as the next generation going to do the same as us, but our generation, we fed off our parents where we grew up with this idea that, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. You have children after you've gotten your degree. You've got a good job. You have enough for a down payment of a house for that white picket fence, then you have child. Right. But I don't know. I don't know if that's the next generation's way of thinking. It may not be, they may, their entire career goals might be entirely different. So kids could theoretically appear early if they want to, or not at all. Because if the climate is shed, then none of the nobody will have. But I mean, to have those things happen too, like, um, you, you need support. That's another reason I think our generation delayed having children because we knew we couldn't really, uh, we didn't have a network of village cause cousins to watch us on Sonos call to children, we make enough to pay the debt, which is the same as a mortgage. So
Speaker 0 00:18:22 You do, in my case, my parents, none of their friends had kids when I was, uh, uh, cause I was the only kid. So that sucked too. So I had an entire village, but it was too many too much. True, true.
Speaker 2 00:18:38 But even, even now that could be the same for a kid who's 40, because if all of everybody else's, it's entirely happen now for a child, because just because they don't a, don't have a village, parents don't have a village or the parent's village, doesn't have friends that have kids that can happen either way is what I'm saying. But I think, you know, it, this drive to go back like completely reversing this, this pull of this biological clock is what I'm getting at. Like this need that we have in our head. Oh my God, we need to have kid by a certain time where, um, having them or freezing the eggs, all of that again is part of that biological drive. So I'm saying, well, what if it could change down the road? Because people will say, Hey, you know what, I'm just going to have my kid at 20, but for that to happen, there's gotta be a lot of support. Like childhood have to be very affordable. Uh, because clearly the villages and magically appearing, people are very nuclear family. Nobody's living in an extended family. So if that doesn't happen where there is like government support yeah.
Speaker 0 00:19:47 Like what's happening in Quebec. Right. I mean, obviously there's a political factors that are different in Quebec versus here because you know, like obviously they're trying to preserve the, their culture and their French language. And I think as part of that, like there's a big drive to have children, right. Like to have Francophone children. And like, so I think that like,
Speaker 2 00:20:08 Um, wow.
Speaker 0 00:20:10 I mean, like that's the only way that you can really explain why there's like such a push for like affordable daycare and subsidizing a lot of IVF, like treatments and stuff like that. They're, they're, they're very pro-family and I'm sure that that's like, there may be a number of factors. Like there it's like, it's basically like they, um, it's, uh, the, you know, it's a Catholic culture. So I think like part of that is very family oriented, but then I'm sure that part of it is just like, they want the French culture to thrive. And in order for the French culture to thrive, you need the legacy you need like the parents to children and so on. Right. So I think like there's a very big push to have children and not just one child, but like many children. And so like, um, so I think like that's why it's very family friendly. And like, if you, even, if you look at the daycare differences between like Quebec and other provinces, it's like astounding.
Speaker 2 00:21:08 It's so good. It's so true. I mean, I apparently the federal government is pushing a lot of funding into Ontario. Apparently all is going to get very affordable. So the rumor has it. We don't know if it will happen. Um, and, and also, you know, I'm turning out to, they also do, um, subsidize one IVF. So they're doing some a little bit, but you're right. I think, uh, I didn't, I wasn't aware that this was the case for Quebec. Um,
Speaker 0 00:21:43 This is my like theory of like why it's happening.
Speaker 2 00:21:47 Yeah. I think, I think you are, you are probably quite accurate in that theory, I think, but I'll tell you it's also happening in Ontario, but you're right. I don't think it'll ever go to that level where they'll be like have multiple children. They might be like, okay, this is an insane cost of daycare. Fine. We'll relief you a little bit. That's probably, as far as it will go, they're still only covering one IVF. It's not like, as you said, it's not, they're subsidizing, uh, egg freezing and they're not subsidizing more than one IVF. So a push isn't as much, maybe the push is that purely because they want a higher birth rate for Canada because of growth rate for Canada is
Speaker 0 00:22:30 Diminishing. Yeah. And I mean, and I'm sure that part of that is just like the population is aging. And as the population ages who is there to actually fund the care for like, you know, like older adults, it's, it's like immigrants. Exactly. Right. <inaudible> to Canada now take care of all the older people
Speaker 2 00:22:58 I was arguing say, Hey, why do we need to, why are we pushing for increasing burglary? Did you hear in China? They're like freaking out because their growth rate is so low. Now they've giving people incentive from one child policy they've gone into three or two
Speaker 0 00:23:15 And they will pay. You don't
Speaker 2 00:23:18 Want to have children. So I'm like, well, why are we pushing for they're portrayed when we have all we have all over the world is migrant crisis because of climate change. Hey man.
Speaker 0 00:23:31 Exactly. <inaudible> forget
Speaker 2 00:23:36 Children. Let's bring all of those people. Just, you know, when that's me, that's my, I think political viewpoint where I'm just like, no, let's just help them because that's another way to help them. The reason you want more children is to like prop up the economy then like, Hey man, just increase it.
Speaker 0 00:24:04 Well, yeah. Well, it's interesting. You brought up like that whole, like changing of what we think about like this biological clock. Cause like all like our entire, at least like for me, like the whole biological clock scenario, it was like really crystallized for me when I was in like my genetics program where it was just like, oh yeah, like, you know, like 35 that's when the eggs start to like, you know, disintegrate, it would be basically that's when you start producing digs on it. So then, um, but then like there's some interesting thinking around that that's been changing in the, like in the medical scientific field, which is that and like, and it's yeah, it's, it's all very curious because you know, for the longest time it was like, oh, eggs, eggs are always the problem. Because like, just, just add here, I'm just going to give a little bit of a science lesson.
Speaker 0 00:25:02 But like basically like when a woman is born, like all the eggs that she will ever produce have like already been created, like within her as a fetus. Right. So then like, and they're all stopped in a certain stage of like cell division. And it's only when she hits puberty that they start to like, actually like rev up back into like proper cell division and then like a few of them all kind of undergo cell division and then like one matures. And then, you know, like that's when you have your lovely periods and whatnot, you know? So then, um, and so because of that cell arrest, like everyone was just like, oh, you know, but like the longer the cells are in arrests, like the more that they're going to be subjecting, like being like the, the more that there'll be subjected to all sorts of like mutagens and radiation and like, you know, all of these different like chemicals and whatever the body basically is subjected to.
Speaker 0 00:25:53 And so then that like the, the cumulative effect of them is what causes them to like, quote unquote, like get into trouble with the age of 35. It was just like the cumulative effect of all of these. But like, and so, which is why it was always kind of like it, like, it's a lot of pressure as a woman where you're just like, oh my God, like now, like I have to have a kid before 35, because like, God knows what will happen. Like, you know, like it's because I waited so long that like suddenly, you know, like I I'm putting like my future children at risk type thing. Right. And then, uh, but like now they're finding that, like, it's not just women, like men undergo this as well. It's just that they produce so many sperm that, you know, like when, like, if you think about it, like all the mutant ones, don't actually fertilize an egg.
Speaker 0 00:26:39 And it's just like the ones that are still viable, like actually do, which is why, you know, like a 70 year old can still have a child. Right. And so, um, but they're finding out that like, as men age, their sperm actually acquired mutations as well. So like now I I'm thinking like the, as you know, that like, does that behoove men to actually like, worry about having kids so younger ages too, right. Because you know, the chances of you having like, cause there's all sorts of mutations that can happen that, um, that may not manifest as, you know, as seriously as like some of these chromosomal abnormalities, but like there are, you know, mild mutations that, you know, put your children at risk of like X, Y, and Z disease. So, um, yeah. So I think the thinking around that is changing, which I mean, it's like, I don't know.
Speaker 0 00:27:31 I don't want to say it's a good thing. Like finally men have to be on the back of the biological clock bandwagon too. But, but then, and then the other thing that's changing too, is that like, they're, they're realizing that the body consumption. So like, you know, for the longest time they were like, oh, you know, if you have, if you have babies after 35, it's a problem we have to like, constantly like monitor you. It's true. Like you do, like, just to make sure, like, obviously like women undergo like prenatal testing and all of these things. But what they're finding is that like older women who have children, like sometimes what the body will do is it will actually take all of those cells and put them into the placenta. This is fascinating. I just found this fascinating. So like, it'll actually like, so like as the cell is dividing, like if all the mutant chromosomes actually end up going into the placenta and what ends up getting like kept for the fetus are all the good ones. So even in some women, what ends up happening is that like, they ended up producing a completely normal baby. And like, all of them, uterine cells are like in her placenta. And apparently this has been probably happening all the time, which is like another interesting thing. So it's like, it's not necessarily over for you at 35.
Speaker 2 00:28:48 Oh yeah, no for sure. But I do wish that the story about the mutant sperms got out into the media a little bit more. I am all for like, because I didn't hear about it until again, talk to my friend who her husband is older and when she is like, oh, I need to have a second kid. I'm like, why? He's like, oh yeah. Cause my husband's getting older. I'm like, it's a thing. It's a thing. But again, other than someone in healthcare, nobody knows about this. Maybe I'm with you. I feel like this information needs to take a lot. Maybe through this podcast it'll like aloud. And because that, you know, we'll still live in a patriarchal society, if mentioned this pressure, certain changes are bound to take effect. Let's make the work life balance a priority because
Speaker 0 00:29:47 Manually to have their kids before the age of 32,
Speaker 2 00:29:51 No, don't be, don't be George Clooney and keep waiting to think that, oh yeah, I'm six
Speaker 0 00:29:58 <inaudible> lawyer will definitely show up the fact that women are the ones who actually have to bear the child. Um, do you really think that it would make a difference if a man feels that they want to be a father early? Well, that can change too, right? Like, I mean, you can see it in the celebrity population. Some of them are not having their own children. They have their children, but it's with like a surrogate surrogate, right? Like, I mean, like if you have the means then technically like a lot of this can be finagle. Right. So, um,
Speaker 2 00:30:43 That is very true. You're right. The surrogates, uh, it is, that's also another thing that's becoming popular and an actual, like a viable sort of alternative for people. So maybe the cock is not going to tick. Who knows?
Speaker 0 00:31:09 Yeah. Like I, I think that the, I think the clock concept is kind of getting morphed. Like I feel like when I was younger, that biological clock concept was like a lot more rigid. And I think that now as we're learning, I know. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think now is that we're learning more, you're finding that like, I mean, it still exists. Like these things aren't really changing, but like, you know, you're realizing that it's like, it's not just women. It's like humans, you know, Dolly clock and not rigid. <inaudible> biological clock. It's melting, it's melting because of climate change. Dolly would be, would actually probably be proud of that. It was arts representing in a surreal kind of a way. But no, I think you guys are right. Like, I mean, it's not changing completely, but, um, I think what's happening is we're finding other like-minded people and people are speaking up about them. So you're seeing more diversity, you know? Um, and, and, and being able to sort of find a niche where you can sort of know, find others who think like yeah. As opposed to everybody sort of giving in and following a linear path.
Speaker 2 00:32:46 Yeah. Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 0 00:32:48 Anyway, on that note, like we could probably talk about this forever, but, um, I, you know, I think we should probably call it an episode. Okay. Sounds like a plan. Yeah. No thanks. And thanks Taz for, for, uh, you know, being so candid and sharing, uh, you know, your perspective and, uh, uh, we hope you come back, we hope you back. So, you know, and then talking to these girls, I
Speaker 2 00:33:23 Feel now I feel like I may, I may have shared too much. I will find out conversations easy to talk to. I may have overshared, but hopefully,
Speaker 0 00:33:42 Oh no, no, don't worry. I mean, I disclosed that. I thought kids were parasite, which I think oversharing 10 or whatever that is scary. Wasn't always going to be a nerd. It was, it was ingrained. It's ingrained from a young age anyway. Um, uh, thanks for joining us today, everyone. And, uh, you know, definitely check us out on, does this make me look old.com and follow us on Instagram, Facebook or Twitter and, uh, or send us an email, um, is same, um, handles. So does this make me look old, uh, at g-mail dot com
Speaker 3 00:34:36 And until next week <inaudible>.
