Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:03 Hi, and welcome to does this make me local, a podcast about aging as gracefully as possible when you're just not ready for two 40 something year old friends will find themselves kind of straddling that really odd period of time when aging and everything that is associated with is starting to become a much bigger part of our lives. We're definitely curious, but at the same time, rather terrified about aging. I'm Schiff. I'm a health science nerd and pop culture themes, and I'm SIM and adult and weighting obsessed with finance and self-help books. We're going to be talking about the stereotypes of aging and how they affect us. And we'll also be doing some deeper dives into some interesting topics, such as what it's like to get old in the society dating when you're older and scientific advancements in anti-aging products and even evolution and scientific thinking around aging and throughout it all we chat rant laugh about or adulting mishaps of which there are so, so, so many. So join us as we navigate our second quarter-life crisis. Hi,
Speaker 1 00:01:09 Welcome to this week's episode of, does this make me look old? So we're going to be trying something a little bit different this week because, uh, we w we kind of wanted to do a deep dive on this story, which was promised in a previous episode. Um, so this is kind of a followup to our episode on I care a lot. So as promised we were going to discuss a similar case that occurred in Canada and, um, yeah, so this week we decided that we would follow up, and this is the deep dive into, um, Joan, borons also known as the Kathleen. So just before I start, um, I just wanted to let you know that, um, the, um, a lot of this material came from articles from the CBC, um, as well as, um, an article in the walrus by a, an author named Zander Sherman who has done a fabulous job doing this really deep dive into this really tragic case.
Speaker 1 00:02:04 Um, and has, um, PR together with the CBC, um, he's produced a podcast called, um, the cat lady, um, for CBC's podcast, the uncover, which is a tremendous podcast that, um, you should really check out. And, um, the podcast on the Catalina is especially good. Um, I've also, so, um, I've also looked at papers, um, sorry, news articles written by Zander Sherman, um, in the CBC. Um, I've also looked at articles from Greg Higgins in my Muskoka now, as well as, uh, news articles from the CDC written by Lisa Mayer, Timothy Sala, as well as Bob McKeon. In addition, I also looked at Wiki and yeah, so that's basically a list of the, um, sources that, uh, we used for this deep dive into the cat lady. So let's get to it. So Joel Lawrence was born in 1921 in Ottawa. Um, and at the age of 19, she worked as a freelance writer for the Toronto star and the auto citizen.
Speaker 1 00:03:16 Um, she also worked for a number of other papers at the time. Um, so three years later at the age of 22, she married an army Lieutenant named Burton gamble. Um, in 1943, uh, she eventually started up a job in advertising, but unfortunately lost it at the age of 26 for quote, trying to write a book while she was supposed to be working. I don't know how well that would fly in this day and age, but sadly in, uh, in the 1940s, um, this was, I guess, a cause for dismissal. Unfortunately, as soon afterwards, she got divorced in 1949, uh, and nothing much, uh, is known about her life after this point in time. Um, except for the fact that at some point, uh, she and Burton had a son and, um, from some poetry that she wrote at the time, or actually some poetry that she wrote during her life, she, um, it sounds like she may have had to give him up soon after she, uh, went to Toronto to take care of her parents until he passed on some time in the 1970s.
Speaker 1 00:04:28 It's also noted that there was a dispute in her family regarding inheritance for property, which may have come to her. But unfortunately went to her aunt's at the time she and her mother were quite upset by the situation. And it's unclear if this actually precipitated her isolation, but a family newsletter written by one of her relatives indicated that, uh, no one had heard no one in my family had heard from Lawrence since the 1976 Christmas card. And she'd left no return address. Soon afterwards, she became a resident of Huntsville in the 1980s. So this is according to many witnesses in the area, and it's possible that she owned property in the area. As her name shows up on a local property deed in 1984, even though she was quiet woman, she stood out among the residents at, uh, in Huntsville. Um, they described her as quiet and articulate and small, but tough as nails who wasn't able to, uh, wasn't afraid to make her voice known.
Speaker 1 00:05:25 She also earned the name of the cat lady as she was known to take an unwanted kittens in the neighborhood and ended up collecting dozens of cats, residents in the town, referred to them as her babies. And really she treated them much like her own family. According to the opp in the area, the Ontario provincial police, she wore salvation army clothes and would sometimes hitchhike in the middle of winter, even though she was on a very limited budget, she would offer people $20 for short rides into unfortunately many refused. She was apparently living in a shack, uh, while she was in Huntsville, which burned down at some point when she accidentally left a stack of newspapers too close to her wood stove, that was in 1994. Soon afterwards, she would move between boarding houses and the salvation army, but she always find time to keep an eye on her cats in the woods.
Speaker 1 00:06:22 She eventually moved into the Cedar Pines, Christian retirement home. This was an ordinary house North of Huntsville owned by a woman named Catherine lawn. It's unclear what happened in the interim and how she wound up here. But in 1997, she began to have issues with money and moved out because the rent at the retirement home was too high. The LANs moved her into an eight by 10 foot shed with no insulation or running water located on property owned by David Walter and Paul LAN Catherine's brothers. According to people in the community, the land farm was the only place that she could keep her cats. The farm actually housed other elderly individuals as well. They lived in a few small outbuildings located on the property in June of 1998. She paid a visit to a local law office. She was paying them visit because she was quite worried that her income tax refund hadn't arrived.
Speaker 1 00:07:23 Joan, as I mentioned, had a very limited income. Her pension old age security brought her about $900 a month. She spent much of the money feeding her cats and often went to the food bank for her own food. Since she would feed her pets. First, our income tax refund that year, it was for about $744. Uh, and given that she was already paying $600 a month in rent, this was a lot of money. So, so put this in perspective. She was paying around $970 a month for an 80 square foot shed in today's dollars. So when our tax refund didn't come in, she became concerned. She went into a local Huntsville law office, looked into it for her and found that her check had been released and cashed earlier in the year. And that the signature on the back wasn't hers, she now had a fraud case on her hands and would check in periodically into the law office to see whether or not the paperwork to take the case to the police was ready.
Speaker 1 00:08:26 In the meantime, a social worker had been notified about Joan's living conditions by client of theirs, who also lived on the lawn property. The social worker in turn notified the authorities and the local fire chief, and a detective visited Jones shed finding her and at least 30 cats inside adult protective services got involved to find Joan another home. But while that was going on, Joel was moved into a decommissioned fan on the land's property. She didn't want to move to a place that couldn't accommodate her cats. This was in September, 1998, early October, the paperwork for the possible theft case surrounding Jones income tax refund was ready. Staff. The law firm told her to come pick it up, but she never came to claim it in late November. A former limited, right? Never lived near Joan told his probation officer and an employee from adult protective services that we're checking in on him, that he was concerned for.
Speaker 1 00:09:18 Joan. He would often see her as she would go into and come back from town, sometimes bringing him candy and chocolate bars from our travels, but he hadn't seen her for at least three weeks. Based on this information, John Lawrence was now a missing person during the course of the investigation into Joan's disappearance. It was revealed that Joel was actually frightened of her landlords. One of them would taunt her by stepping on her cats, although the uncle of the lens run out well and also lived on the property and offered her use of the bathroom in his farmhouse, Joan will use the restroom of a fast food restaurant in order to bathe, because you just never know what he's going to do. Joan also asked a social worker who lived nearby to call the police if anything happened to her. But oddly, one of the lens shared a bank account with her and could access it through a bank card.
Speaker 1 00:10:07 And even more strangely, it was being accessed when Joel was last seen, but embrace bridge, which was over 30 kilometers from when she, where she lived. When Joan went missing, the police approached David LAN to discuss her possible whereabouts. They talked in twice in two days, but his story changed between meetings. He said, the gentleman gone into hiding and was living with some woman named Hazel. But in another interrogation, he'd say that she was living with a Scottish man named George. According to him, Joel was in New York, Vancouver or Hawaii on November 30th of that year, he told the police that he visited her in Bracebridge, but eventually started referring to her in the past tense. He had over a dozen different stories about where she might be, but nothing could be verified. What the officers did find in December when they searched the property was that Jones shed had been completely cleaned out.
Speaker 1 00:11:00 Her clothing had been burned when they extensively searched the property. They did find Deborah of her cats more than half a dozen had been shot dead. It turns out the Jones' concern about Ron Allen were justified. He claimed responsibility for kitting killing her cats with the 22 caliber hunting rifle. As part of the investigation into Jones' disappearance. Police talk to residents of one of the lands residences from Glen banner in January of 1999, the police interviewed Ralph Grant, a resident who began to live at the residence a little earlier in the winter of 1998. Soon after the interview, he was slated to move to the private residence of the manager from Glen Malayna Simic, as from Len was scheduled for closure a week after the police interview in November, 2000, police were following up with grants, but then found he wasn't at Simics. In fact told the police that grant never arrived when the resident closed.
Speaker 1 00:11:57 And she'd assumed that the police had relocated him. In addition to other seniors were also missing. John sample was a 90 year old man who was thought to have gone missing between January and March of 1998. John Crofts was a 71 year old gentlemen with bipolar disorder was lasting in February or March of 1998. The LANs never reported these men missing and all they, they couldn't be found. Their pension checks were still somehow being cashed. Further investigation showed the 12 other residents had died while being in the land's care. These 12, along with Joan Lawrence, Ralph Grant, John sample, and John Croft all had money stolen from them by so who were the lands? Exactly. There were a large family of seven brothers and sisters that moved to Huntsville in the 1970s for some of them, their brushes with the law began as teens, town gossip referred to stories of the siblings, stealing things like skis from the local ski Hill or even drugs from a local hospital for three of the lands.
Speaker 1 00:12:59 These offenses became actual crimes where the records David, the oldest sibling was convicted of breaking and entering and theft. Walter has had over a quarter century of conviction starting at the age of 18, including those for breaking and entering fraud and impersonating a police officer. Some of his more disturbing offenses involve armed robberies and were described after 2005. One in what she groped in elderly man's genitals before confining him into a cold cellar and another, in which he bound an elderly woman's wrist and ankles trapping her in her bedroom, telling her that she quote had nice breasts. Their sister Catherine served time in prison for drug possession, theft and extortion by 1988 at the age of 25, yet by 1994, they were somehow all able to open at least three retirement residences in Muskoka, Cedar Pines, Christian retirement home, and from Glen Manor, both in your Huntsville, as well as the residents on the farm in which John Lawrence lived at any time up to 20 people were living on their properties and were under their care.
Speaker 1 00:14:04 In 1998. One of the residents of these properties came forward with a complaint about living conditions. There precipitating a police investigation. According to the investigation into the lens members of the family would visit homeless shelters and hospitals and Toronto to recruit people to their retirement home. They would pose this quote consultants and placement officers and hand out pamphlets to seniors, living at men's shelters and at residences for those recovering from substance abuse, such as Seton house and Matt Talbot house, according to one of the managers at Seton house at the time who actually taught Paul and they couldn't be in the building unannounced, he got the sense that Paul was looking into these people as a source of income, the lands would tell potential residents that they wouldn't be moved very far, just 15 minutes away from Toronto. When in reality, the trip would take them to locations three hours outside of the city, according to investigations into the lens.
Speaker 1 00:15:04 Once the residents got to these homes, they signed over their powers of attorney and gave Walter land permission to change banking accounts and banking information, any benefits, including old age security income tax and disability would be deposited into a pounce overseen by the lens. The residents had to ask, lands the lands for permission to leave the residence. And wouldn't be able to get in touch with friends or family because unfortunately in the time without cell phones, telephones were locked away. Although the lands described their homes as attractive and affordable with qualified staff, including a nurse and a dietician, a contractor asked to work on the property and police investigating lands indicated that the conditions were far from ideal. One of the properties was always in danger of being shut down because it didn't meet fire safety standards. Police documents described under staff and a foul older in the air of one of the residences, as well as mattresses found lying on the floor and up to 11 seniors living in a single four-bedroom house staff or the properties were usually family, friends, and acquaintances with questionable credentials, a contractor who was asked to work on one of the homes and bringing up, bringing it up to fire code describes unfinished rooms with poor ventilation.
Speaker 1 00:16:20 The residents he saw were unkempt and dirty with old clothes. Instead of meals being provided by their in-house dietician. One resident described eating Kraft dinner three times a day, broken up by the occasional boiled egg that was collected from the lens farm. One of the police investigators into Joan Lawrence's disappearance believed that the residents quote, seemed more like prisoners, which was given further support when they were told by police that they could leave of their own accord. And the residents quickly stated that they wanted to leave. And the sooner the better. So how did this happen? How can members of a family with multiple criminal criminal records being charged of seniors residences, how could they take advantage of their clients and ultimately steal thousands of dollars from them? Sadly at the time that the lens decided to run retirement homes, there was no official body that was involved in their oversight.
Speaker 1 00:17:11 No agency officially inspected the homes or ensure the safety of their residents. No agency would investigate claims or evoke a retirement homes, license. Surprisingly, such an agency only came into being in 2011 with the establishment of the retirement homes, regulatory authority. This agency currently ensures that residents has complied with the retirement homes act, which was only passed into legislation in Ontario in 2010 and only fully implemented seven years ago in 2014, as a result, 16 people under the care of the lens were swindled out of significant deal of money before or after. Many of them passed on the fraud case against the lands went forward and they were charged with stealing pension and old age security checks from their 16 victims, totaling, at least $100,000. Katherine LAN received a nine month conditional sentence, her brothers, Paul and Walter pleaded guilty to their charges and received conditional sentences. They were ordered to pay back more than 20,000 and $10,000 respectively and received probation. David's charges were mysteriously dropped for undisclosed reasons. None of them went to jail. The disappearances of Joan Lawrence, John Semple, John Crofts and Ralph Grant are now being investigated as homicides. The cases are still
Speaker 0 00:18:32 All right. So that was the story of the cat lady. And, um, yeah, so I basically wanted to bring up the story because like, as horrifying as it is, it's kind of a follow-up to the, I care a lot episode where we were talking about, you know, people taking advantage of the, um, the elderly in the States and, uh, whether or not it could happen here in Canada. And like, as you can see, it can clearly happen here in Canada.
Speaker 2 00:18:57 Um, I'm just so shocked right now. Um, I, hadn't actually known about this story until you told me about it. Um, and obviously I hadn't done the research. So as I was listening to you speak, I think just every second, I just kept getting more and more horrible.
Speaker 0 00:19:15 I know it's just, it's just such it, it's just a sad story. And I think that what really upsets me about it is that, I mean, granted, a lot of this stuff happened in like the late nineties, but I, I think what bothers me about it is that at least in Ontario, there were no, there were no rules around who could run a retirement home until 20, until 2010. And didn't even go into effect until 2014. Like that is not very long. Like that's not very long ago.
Speaker 2 00:19:43 I understand. How is that acceptable? I know. And like, why are we not hearing more about this kind of stuff? Or are we an I'm just blind to it?
Speaker 0 00:19:54 Yeah. That's exactly it like, I mean, so like, like have I been blind to it? Yeah. Yeah. I know. And that's the thing, like, I mean, I only came across the story because like I have a, I have a little bit of a true crime bent, right. Like I listened to a bunch of true crime podcasts and stuff like that. And, um, I'm kind of drawn to these like dark stories. And I had heard about seniors going missing in Muskoka like a few years ago, and then soon enough Alexander Sherman from the CDC, like, um, he's he started writing like this article about this and, and, um, but otherwise I would never have known, like, it was it's only because I was interested in true crime that I actually like was aware of this story. And so I like it is kind of surprising that this kind of thing can happen and people aren't up in arms about this. Like, yeah. I just part of me wonders, is it just because,
Speaker 2 00:20:51 And Muskoka, I mean is not like some remote, do you know what I mean? Like, it's such a huge holiday spot. It's not like devoid of traffic and devoid of, do you know what I mean? It's not like some cabin in the woods where people can actually go missing for days. Like, it just feels like Muskoka is right at our doorstep.
Speaker 0 00:21:14 Yeah, exactly. In fact, cleaning our backyard and that these, these poor people were being exploited and taken advantage of and then like ultimately died and like nobody really, really paid attention, you know, until these people that like kind of brought it to, into like the one white and, and, uh, yeah, like I sometimes wonder like, is it just because like we, as a society are not really thinking about the elderly, like we don't think about people once they hit a certain age or, or is it just because like, there just aren't there isn't the infrastructure or the support system for, you know, people of a certain age who don't necessarily fall through the cracks because of either mental illness or that you just don't have like family support or whatever it is. You know, some of
Speaker 2 00:22:02 These people actually have family members.
Speaker 0 00:22:05 Yeah. That's the other thing, like, I mean, Joan, Joan had family, but then she kind of lost touch with them in the seventies and then like, and, but then like some of these other, like people, they had family, but then, you know, they were getting a little bit hard to take care of and they were put into these retirement homes run by the lawns. I'm sorry. I'm not sure if I'm saying that right. It's lands or lawns, but anyway, so, uh, run by the lawns and like, you know, on like first pass, they seem, it seemed to be legit, legit. And then, and then you later find out that like, no, it was not, it was clearly not legit. And, you know yeah. Like people were being like, like fraud was being committed in people's mind, like people's life savings of which it sounds like it was fairly paltry for a lot of these people, but they were still being stolen. You know, this was so heartbreaking. It's just awful. Like, like collectively they stole from at least from what I understand, like 16 people, like, and it was like into the hundreds, like it was like,
Speaker 2 00:23:10 Literally I care a lot in real life. That's, it's funny. Cause I hadn't even known about the guardianship as a thing until the movie. And like, are you still as traumatized by that movie? Yes.
Speaker 0 00:23:24 It's still just as traumatized. I'm still like we watched it. Oh yeah. We watched it like a few weeks ago and I still think about this movie. Like it is, it is very Christmas, but yeah, no, I, it is it's I don't get any and so horrifying, like, and uh, like I just feel that, that, I mean, it's great that in the States that there are some of these organizations that are kind of coming together in order to prevent this kind of abuse against, um, you know, against senior citizens. But like, like why, why don't we have something like that in Canada? Or do we have something like that in Canada? Like I'm, I'm not even sure. Right. I actually do some research on this before we reached the age. I just want to be prepared.
Speaker 0 00:24:19 I mean, I'm not, I'm laughing, but I know, I think I'm just so traumatized by this. You kind of have to laugh. Yes. I know. Otherwise it's just like, you feel like you need to cry. Like it's really upsetting. And the other thing is, is that, um, well the other thing that I find kind of appalling and I mean, I know it's coming from a good place, so I'm not faulting people for doing this, but like I was reading this MSN article about how they were actually referring to like, like movies. Like I care a lot and about like this guardianship issue and whatnot, and like what they put the onus on the individual. Like I remember reading this article and it was just like, well, you know it, but to prevent this from happening to you, you need a living will, which is just true.
Speaker 0 00:25:07 Everyone needs a living. Well, I'm a big, big proponent of living. Well, I don't currently have one I'm it's on my to-do list. I'm getting one. But like, like, yes, like you should have a living will. Yes. Agree. But then like, then it's something like, Oh, and you should keep it updated all the time because you don't know when you're going to be, you know, potentially losing your faculties. Like, you know, and like everything was like, the onus is on you. She didn't say me be some kind of controls in place so that people can't just walk in and do this. That's exactly it. I think that's my problem with it. I agree. Some of the owners must be on the individual. You should have a living will in place. You should have a willing place. Like, you know, just to make sure that like, like your possessions and everything that like you have taken your lifetime to accomplish, like goes to the right people and that like you're taking care of in the way that you want to be taken care of.
Speaker 0 00:25:58 And like, whether or not like things like, you know, do you want medical assisted like, um, interventions when you're, when you, when you're older and you're, you know, in, from like things like this, but these are things that we need to think about or talk about and like, you know, bring into like everyday speak so that it isn't shameful or isn't, you know, taboo to talk about. Like, I can talk to you about it with you and say like, look, if I'm like in firm or I can't like make my own decisions that make sure that like X, Y, and Z. And like, you know, like if I had kids and the kids know that like, this is, this is what needs to be done. Like that w we need to talk about it in the open, but then at the same time, like, I think that there should be some sort of infrastructure, like at the federal level provincial level, whatever. So that like, people are protected. Like, it's just, it's just, I don't know. Sorry, I'm getting all worked up about this, but like, it's just really upsetting,
Speaker 2 00:26:57 Just too flabbergasted to actually say much
Speaker 0 00:26:59 Today.
Speaker 2 00:27:03 And it's also the lack of consequences. That is the part that's horrifying, because what does it say about us as a society that there isn't an automatic, um, consequence for something like this? Exactly. Like it should be cut and dry like that, you know? It's okay.
Speaker 0 00:27:29 No, I know. I know what you mean, because like, I mean, at the end of the day, like the lawns got convicted for fraud, but then it, it feels kind of like a slap on the wrist. It's like, Oh, you stole some money from these people, but you know, don't do it again. You can go free now, you know, like, aren't they out? It's like, they're, they're out and about. Yeah. So like, it's just, uh, I like what's to prevent them from doing something like this again, you know, like, I don't know, like, it's just, it's just upsetting. I'm like what? Like, what's what's to prevent like anybody taking advantage of, you know, like senior citizens in this way, like about thinking a little scams that are sometimes one where like, people click, I have had my colleagues and friends who've had like grandparents and parents, who've gotten scammed out of like thousands of dollars from people who call them up and say like, Oh, you know, your grandson he's in jail right now. And he needs to send us money right away. If you don't want them, like, these things really happen. They do. And, and people get scammed out of money. It's really awful. Again, like it happens
Speaker 2 00:28:41 With all the stupid IRS and Canadian, like tax revenue, things like those scam calls. It's like, you have, uh, you know, whatever I can't remember, but yeah,
Speaker 0 00:28:53 Exactly. Like you. Yes, exactly. Like the, like you're, you're in trouble with the IRS. So like, you've been, you've been con you might be convicted for tax fraud if you don't do X, Y
Speaker 2 00:29:04 Yeah. And then I've been getting a lot of like foreign speaking scam calls, and I've heard that they target immigrants of that community. And so imagine getting a phone call like that and where you don't actually know the system yet. And you're so vulnerable. Exactly. Yeah. It's just awful.
Speaker 0 00:29:22 I know. And I think like if I feel that's what bothers me is that, like, these are vulnerable people and we're not doing enough as a society to protect them, you know? Like anyway,
Speaker 2 00:29:37 No, it is heartbreaking. And thank you for, um, doing the, into this, you know, like, like I said, I hadn't actually known about this.
Speaker 0 00:29:45 Yeah. Well, obviously I didn't do the research. Like, you know, the, the members of the fifth estate Sherman obviously did like much, much more research into it. I'm just kind of like regurgitating it, but like, yeah, like it just goes to show like how much they clearly care about the case and about these people, um, to put the time and the effort into letting it be known. And I mean, you know, it's been several years that they've, that they've had this, this story's been out, um, you know, um, that it's kind of come out into the open. So, yeah. So definitely check out uncovered CVCs podcasts, Zander Sherman does a, um, like a season on the cat lady. It's excellent. Yeah. It, it, and it's just so heartbreaking, like just to, just to listen to it from beginning to end, uncover is a great podcast series in general.
Speaker 0 00:30:34 Like they they've been doing a number. Um, I think their first season was on Nexium, so they've just been doing a number of really good, um, kind of deep dives into, um, various stories, uh, in, in Canadian news. So, um, but the cat lady was among one of them and I would definitely suggest reading. Uh, she does checking it out if you don't want to check out the podcast then, um, Zander, I think wrote an article about it and the walrus called, um, I think it was murdering cottage country. Um, excellent. So, um, yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely check those out. Yeah. So I guess, um, I guess you want to call that, do you want to call it for the week?
Speaker 2 00:31:15 Yeah, I think so. Um, but, um, no, I feel like I just want to go and actually listen to the rest of the podcast cover podcasts. And that's why, but no, I think we should wrap it up here, but yeah,
Speaker 0 00:31:30 For sure. Yeah. It's excellent. The other thing that, like the other thing about the podcast and even the article, or even the articles, and I know we'll try to link it to the website, sorry, it's kind of DIY and I'm trying to like sort things out on our Squarespace sites. So links may not go up like right away until I figure it out. But, uh, uh, yeah, like the, if you, if you want to check it out, you can also check out some of Joan's poetry. She was, she was an excellent poet and it's just, it's just really sad to see kind of what happened and, um, yeah, but in some way, I'm, in some way, I'm kind of glad about the internet and, um, because in some way, like a little bit of her lives on, right. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:32:15 Exactly. Yeah, no, that's for sure. Okay. Well on that note, no, thank you. Thank you for listening with us. Um, and we hope you'll join us again next week. Um, until then we're on social media on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, um, just Google us and search for, does this make me look old or, you know, when you go Instagram search for the same thing or email us at, does this make me look old, uh, at g-mail dot com and, uh, yeah, until next week
Speaker 3 00:32:50 Sounds good.
