Speaker 1 00:00:03 Hi, and welcome to does this make me local, a podcast about aging as gracefully as possible when you're just not ready for two 40 something year old friends will find themselves kind of straddling that really odd period of time when aging and everything that it's associated with is starting to become a much bigger part of our lives. We're definitely curious, but at the same time, rather terrified about aging. I'm Schiff. I'm a health science nerd and pop culture themes, and I'm SIM and adult and waiting obsessed with finance and self-help books. We're going to be talking about the stereotypes of aging and how they affect us. And we'll also be doing some deeper dives into some interesting topics, such as what it's like to get old in the society dating when you're older and scientific advancements in anti-aging products and even evolution and scientific thinking around aging and throughout it all, we chat rant, laugh about our adulting mishaps of which there are so, so, so many. So join us as we navigate our second quarter-life crisis.
Speaker 2 00:01:08 Hi, and welcome to this week's episode of does this make me look old? I'm SIM and I'm Shiv and, uh, yeah, we're here today because we actually wanted to talk about something that probably everyone is talking about. It's the new it word. If we're still keeping up with those things post pandemic, but it just seems much as relevant, in fact, probably more relevant than ever mental health and wellbeing. I see the look on your face. I'm just laughing and you're like, yes. Let's talk about mental health. Yeah. Okay. So this is the w was this your idea or is this my, or are both ID? I forget. I forgot what we've just been talking about because we've just been talking about mental health. Oh yeah. Yeah. That's true.
Speaker 1 00:02:02 Hi, and welcome to, does this make me look old, a podcast about aging as gracefully as possible when you're just not ready for two 40 something year old friends move find themselves kind of straddling that really odd period of time when aging and everything that is associated with is starting to become a much bigger part of our lives. We're definitely curious, but at the same time, rather terrified about aging. I'm Schiff. I'm a health science nerd and pop culture themes, and I'm sin and adult and waiting obsessed with finance and self-help books. We're going to be talking about the stereotypes of aging and how they affect us. And we'll also be doing some deeper dives into some interesting topics, such as what it's like to get old in the society dating when you're older and scientific advancements and anti-aging products and even evolution and scientific thinking around aging and throughout it all we chat rant laugh about or adulting mishaps of
Speaker 2 00:02:59 Which there are so, so, so many.
Speaker 3 00:03:01 So join us as we navigate our second quarter-life crisis.
Speaker 2 00:03:07 Hi, and welcome to this week's episode of does this make me look old? I'm SIM and I'm
Speaker 3 00:03:12 Shiv and,
Speaker 2 00:03:13 Uh, yeah, we're here today because we actually wanted to talk about something that probably everyone is talking about. It's the new it word. If we're still keeping up with those things post pandemic, but it just seems much as relevant, in fact, probably more relevant than ever mental health and wellbeing. I see the look on your face. I'm just laughing and you're like, yes,
Speaker 3 00:03:43 Let's talk about mental. How, uh, yeah. Okay. So this is the, well, was this your idea or was this my, or our both ID? I forget. I forgot.
Speaker 2 00:03:52 You've just been talking about, because we've just been talking about mental health.
Speaker 3 00:03:56 Oh yeah, yeah. That's true. Yeah. Okay.
Speaker 2 00:04:00 So we're going to talk about it. We might as well talk about it here because well, we might as well just talk about it here. There's no class I know now. And, um,
Speaker 3 00:04:14 And it might end up becoming relevant later. I feel like we should like put the caveat that we're starting to talk about it. Now we may end up talking about it in multiple episodes later. Right. I feel like it's like an ongoing thing, right?
Speaker 2 00:04:28 No, definitely an ongoing thing. So maybe, maybe the best thing to do is to start off with how are you doing?
Speaker 3 00:04:35 Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, um,
Speaker 3 00:04:41 That's, it's so funny. Well, because the thing is, is like I, and I think this is the issue with mental health. Like just the fact that I can't even really tell you how I am. I think speaks volumes to the way that we think about mental health, because everybody just wants to put a brave face on it. Right. Everybody wants to be like, I'm fine and doing great, you know? And it's just like, no, I'm not doing awfully. Like I, like I've had, I've had episodes where I've done worse, but I don't know. Like I just feel like burnt out, you know? And I just, yeah, I'm just burnt out.
Speaker 2 00:05:22 C as you were speaking, you were already putting the caveats in place. Right? You're like, well, I've had worse episodes. Like I feel like you're trying to put it, you know, in a way that's digestible for the audience or for me, you know, and then you're like, it's not that bad. Um, and I think that's probably the brave face you're talking about. Really.
Speaker 3 00:05:47 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:05:49 So
Speaker 3 00:05:50 Yeah, I know. I feel like everyone does it right where you're just like, it's a, it's one of those things where people ask how we're doing and nobody actually really wants the answer, which is like, I'm not doing so great,
Speaker 2 00:06:02 Especially now. Right. Because we feel like everyone is not doing so great. Um, yeah. At least on average, there are aspects of our lives. That's just feeling a lot more stressful somehow. Yeah, exactly. I know that's certainly the case for me. So I mean, so maybe I shouldn't speak for everybody, but it just feels like there are more people who, when you get real and deep with them, they actually all admit for, you know, in one way shape or form, they are struggling. Whether it's anxiety, whether it's fear, whether it's, um, other types of, you know,
Speaker 3 00:06:39 Uh, depression or yeah. Or any other mental health disorder.
Speaker 2 00:06:44 Yeah. And I'm not, I mean, obviously I'm not a doctor of any kind. So the caveat being, if you feel that you need to talk to someone, please reach out to family, friends, and professional support. So, you know, um, don't, don't let it fester in your head. Um, and that's actually part of the reason why we wanted to talk it out here as well, because, um, you know, we figure it's better to share.
Speaker 3 00:07:13 Yeah, exactly. I mean, yeah. Well, I mean, how are you feeling currently in this sort of post pandemic ish?
Speaker 2 00:07:22 Uh, you know, it's world. It's not funny. I was going to say it's funny, but no, it's not funny. Um, the thing is, I think when the pandemic started, there was a different type of, um, feeling, right? So you were kind of like, you know, in lockdowns you were kind of like really socially distance and, and all of that. And, uh, there was an element of working from home too. I was working from home like literally from large March last March. Um, so very lucky. And so what I found though, was that over time it became a thing where I couldn't explain why I was feeling frantic and frazzled and anxious all the time, but at the same time, I always felt, and I still do feel the need to sort of then say, but we're so lucky. Um, oh, and I'm so lucky. Ooh, I get to work from home and I don't have to expose, you know, uh, get exposed to, uh, Corona, uh, outside or, um, you know, oh, I'm so lucky I get to work from home. Um, and it was an easy pivot or I'm so lucky I'm healthy and I'm safe. And you know, I haven't lost my job or I haven't done this or whatever. And of course
Speaker 3 00:08:41 That your situation is so much better than
Speaker 2 00:08:44 Other people. Right. Which in the grand scheme of thing, yes, it is actually probably true with all the crazy stuff that's been happening around the world. Um, and all the, you know, uh, things. Yes, it's definitely true. But I also feel like that kind of almost adds a layer of anxiety, um, where it's like the masking is even deeper in some ways.
Speaker 3 00:09:11 Yeah. I mean, I guess my other question is, is like, I guess when you do feel issues around anxiety or, you know, fear or like depression or whatever it is, do you, or like, you know, you're kind of frazzled, panicky kind of feeling, do you feel like when you do the masking, it makes you feel like when you have those anxiety feelings that you shouldn't really, you know what I mean? Because you're like, everything's so amazing. Like I can work from home, I can be healthy, blah, blah, blah. Like, I shouldn't be feeling anxious. Things are better for me compared to somebody else.
Speaker 2 00:09:52 Exactly. So it's, it's very odd because you're feeling anxious, you're feeling nervous, you know, all of those feelings, but you're also feeling guilty for feeling that way. Um, you know, and it's, it's, it hasn't been pretty, I won't lie. Um, and, and I actually, but some somehow though I feel it's gotten worse in 2021, even though
Speaker 3 00:10:17 Things have gotten better with regard to Corona.
Speaker 2 00:10:21 Yeah. I know. I don't know if I'm, if I'm just imagining it, but I feel like it's gotten worse somehow.
Speaker 3 00:10:29 Yeah. I know. I think it's because like, at least for me, um, it's strange because like, when I went to work, things were actually just as busy as they were pre Corona. Like I thought that things would die down. Cause I was just like, oh, you know, like people aren't going to be coming into the clinic visits anymore. I'm sure like elective surgeries are being, you know, delayed. Like, you know, like there aren't as many patients, but actually it wasn't like, it wasn't like we didn't have a downturn. Yeah. Like we didn't have a downturn. We were just as busy as before. And sometimes we were busier, like just, just because of the nature of the work we do. Like, I think Corona was actually like causing more abnormal findings, which meant more testing, which meant more testing coming to us anyway. So it's funny because, because of Corona, everyone was just like, oh, like, um, and in many institutions this happened like in the states.
Speaker 3 00:11:31 Cause like I was talking to my colleagues in the states as well. And it was the same thing where it's just like, everyone was like kind of pushing things towards like coronavirus testing and whatnot. And so it caused like log jams in other areas of medicine. And so, um, but it kind of gave you a pass because like if at least, and especially being in like academic medicine where you're like, you have other duties beyond like just the clinical work you have like research and teaching and you know, like all these other things that you're supposed to be doing. And so like Corona almost gave you a pass. Cause it was just like, oh no, we're busy with Corona. Like I can't look at this stuff right now. Right. Like even research, even on the research side, they'd be like, oh, you know, like supply chains have been disrupted, like research, like the reagents for, um, doing like, like wet bench research have like all, um, have all kind of gone by the wayside.
Speaker 3 00:12:28 Like here, we'll give you extra money in order to, you know, pay people that you have to keep on the payroll, even though you're out, you're not actually, you know, doing any work. And so like, so on the scientific community, they were like, it's okay. You have a by, you have like an extra year. No worries. But now like we're all kind of past that. It's like, oh, we understand Corona. We understand the testing. Everything's like, even though there are like, even though like we were in the middle of the fourth wave, you're still kind of expected to kind of go back to normal. It's just like, oh, like, it doesn't matter. Like, things are almost the same. Like it's almost like status quo. It's just that now you just have Corona on top of it.
Speaker 2 00:13:05 Does that make you more anxious in some ways?
Speaker 3 00:13:08 Yeah. I mean, it makes me more anxious because I was just like, oh no, I like now there's been a delay with all my research activities, but like I have to complete them. You have to do
Speaker 2 00:13:20 My job is all of us. They expect things to have been done. There was a yeah, exactly. Totally. I totally get that.
Speaker 3 00:13:30 Yeah. So I mean, and I mean, like I don't okay. I was going to say something I'm like Sage because I missed saying it anyway. Now I was going to say like, I don't expect anyone to be like playing the, like the tiniest violin in the world for me. Like my life is awful, but like, but it is anxiety inducing. And I think this is the catch 22. Right. You feel like shit, but then you can't, you feel the guilt because you're just like things.
Speaker 2 00:13:57 Exactly. I shouldn't feel like a kid. And then that just creates this perpetual cycle of feeling worse. And I think that's it exactly where, um, you know, same thing where I'm like, why am I not being able to feel better about certain things. Right. Um, but you know, um, my meant, but I guess it's easy to sort of, but it speaks volumes, um, because it's easy to sor sort of forget that how much we as a society, uh, discount, uh, mental health, like it was something to do with your physical health people would be like, are you going to a doctor? Are you okay? Do you need a crutch, a band-aid of a cell that appointments, the medication? Sure. For sure. Right. So that level of checking in the concern, um, and even how you Siri, how seriously you take it would differ, uh, from mental health. Because first of all, it's not easy to figure out that, Hey, I'm not feeling that great. Um, my level of, you know, emotional instability or my, uh, connectivity with people, like whatever defines mental health, I'm not, you know, fully versed in that one, but, but your
Speaker 3 00:15:16 You're basically like away from your baseline. Right. And you can like tell that there's like a difference, right? Yeah. And it's affecting your life and it could, well, I mean, this may or may not affect renal function. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:15:29 It is like, I, I don't know, like I've been having trouble sleeping. Um, w like, there'll be days where I'm like sleeping two, three hours and then I sleep for 14 hours in, you know, not 14 by 12. Um, I mean, it's not that different, but do you know what I mean? And, and you've known me long enough to know that that's weird. Like, I'm the type of person who usually wakes up at like five o'clock in the morning. And nowadays I'm like some days I'm up at five, some days I'm up at seven, some days I'm up at noon. And I, I know, and the new,
Speaker 3 00:16:05 The noon freaks me out. Cause I'm just like what you sleep until noon.
Speaker 2 00:16:13 I know then I'm like, no, but you know, it's, um, but you know, it, isn't just us. And I think like one of the parts that, um, that I do wonder or worry about is how has it been impacting, um, uh, you know, people, older people in our communities, right. Especially the people who are living by themselves, um, or they live in nursing homes or like, I don't know, like that part also kind of really bothers me just thinking about it because it has been so challenging for everyone, um, you know, going out and about, but when you perhaps rely on other people for support, uh, especially physical support, like I wonder how, how difficult it must have been. So,
Speaker 3 00:17:03 Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, actually I could see that having downstream effects, which is why I think that we should really advocate for, for increased funding and support for mental health. Because like, if you think about it, like it, yeah. Like if, as an older adult you're dependent on other people, but then the people that you're dependent on are undergoing mental health issues, then it can, it can actually foster mental health issues in yourself. Like, even if you didn't have them before, because you're just like, you know, now maybe you can't go out or get your groceries, or like, you're not socializing like norm, like you normally would like, yeah. It's, I dunno. It's really problematic. I mean, it's funny. Cause, um, I was just thinking, cause uh, SIM had done like some research and had, uh, looked up some articles and uh, one of the statistics that you were reading out to me was that, what was it like one in two people would after the age of 40 would have like,
Speaker 2 00:18:05 Or age of 40.
Speaker 3 00:18:08 Okay. Like has already had
Speaker 2 00:18:10 Like will have, or have had a mental
Speaker 3 00:18:12 Has like a mental health issue. Yeah. Which is really Catholic. And going back to the point about like the fact that we obviously don't take mental health as seriously as we should, because if any disease affected one in two people, there would be multiple fundraisers for it. It would be like, there would probably be like governmental regulations around it. You know what I mean? Like if it was like one in two people are getting like diabetes or cancer, then like yeah. You would have like, it's, it's kind of like those anti-smoking campaigns, right? Like in the nineties suddenly, like we decided, no, you can't smoke indoors anymore because you're putting everybody at risk for lung cancer. And look, now we don't have, like, you know, now are like, not that lung cancer doesn't affect people, but it doesn't affect people quite at the rates that it did if they were right. And so, yeah. And so it was just like, if, yeah, like I just don't understand if it's one and do people like, how come, how come we're all kind of like, yeah, that's fine.
Speaker 2 00:19:18 And, and you know, what's funny. I don't know why I keep like using the word funny when none of it is funny, but in any given year it says, um, and this is an, um, a cam H article I think, or C, M H a.ca articles, Canada, mental health association. Um, and So, yeah, I know I just screwed up. Um, so it, it says here that in any given year one in five people personally experience a mental health problem or illness. And I don't know if this is, I think this is probably 2019 numbers cause there's another 2019 reference. But so now 2021 post pandemic, I just can't imagine how much more, if even if the numbers are the same, I imagine the intensity of it. Does that make sense? Um, or, or, or the degree of it is probably, you know?
Speaker 3 00:20:14 Yeah, no, I agree. I, if, if that I have a feeling the numbers have changed for, for the worst, like it, I can't see, I can't see the numbers having maintained their status. Like I think that, uh, I'm sure that more people have come down with, um, you know, with mental health issues and I'm sure the intensity of it for people who are already undergoing mental health issues are probably has probably increased. So it's like a double whammy, you know? Um, I find, yeah, I think the other thing I find in, I mean, interesting is probably not the best word, but like, yeah. So I was looking through like the, uh, world health organization and they actually have, um, they have a publication on mental health of older adults. And, um, since this is an aging podcast, we would talk about it. But, um, yeah, so basically they were saying that, um, yeah, so in, among older adults, approximately 15% of them aged 60 and over will suffer, like suffer from a mental disorder and that, um, yeah.
Speaker 3 00:21:21 And, and what was, what's really upsetting is that, um, so the CDC actually, I don't think it was the CDC. I think it was the, hang on, I'm going to get this right. Cause I don't want to misquote somebody, but it's, um, the American foundation for suicide prevention. But basically what they have said is that in 2019, um, the rate of suicide was highest in middle aged, white men, um, accounting for about 69% of suicide deaths, which is crazy. And like, and yeah, and I've read that apparently that likes the suicide rate actually increases among people who are 45 to 64. And then there's also another bump, um, at the age of like 85. And so that's like, oh, it's just not, I know,
Speaker 2 00:22:17 Kind of with a similar thing, um, in, in the CME, uh, ha website where they were talking about that mortality rate due to suicide among men is three times the rate among women, but that girls and young women, 20 times more likely to harm themselves and be hospitalized.
Speaker 3 00:22:38 Yeah. Yeah. Cause I remember when I was in forensics, that's what they, that's what they would also say. So this has been like, so that that's, that's like a well-known statistic and it's mainly because, and this is really sad, but it's because men choose more lethal methods of, of like attempting suicide. So, so for example, like a woman might decide and then not to generalize, but like on average, like women will choose like less lethal methods. So like they'll use like pills or they'll cut themselves or something, but like there's, there's a way they're, they, they could potentially be saved from that. Like if somebody catches them, then they could, you know, get their stomach pumped or, you know, they, you could stop staunch the bleeding somehow. Right. But like men, for example, will probably use more lethal methods, which is like firearms mainly. So, um, so that's yeah. So it's, it's kinda sad.
Speaker 2 00:23:28 Uh, what was the age group that you had just referenced? Was it 50 to 60 for adults?
Speaker 3 00:23:34 No. So it actually increases from 45 on onward. So like there's yeah. Yeah. So there's a group that like, I think it's about it's about 19% or so, and then like 40 to 54 year olds, another 19% in 54 to 65. And then about 20% from like 85.
Speaker 2 00:23:53 Um, the university of Michigan actually apparently did a research. Um, basically it's the mental and they're basically saying that, um, there's, there's probably a mental health crisis brewing, um, that this is specific to the states, but I feel like it's related to us globally anyway. Um, but they found that, um, the, the, that there are four groups, um, that are likely to have experienced worse and mental health or have felt heightened anxiety or sleep problems. So that is, um, women in general, um, people aged 50 to 64 people with higher levels of education and individuals in poor physical health.
Speaker 3 00:24:39 Oh, that's interesting.
Speaker 2 00:24:41 As many as one fifth of all older adults have also said that they felt their mental health had worsened during this crisis,
Speaker 3 00:24:49 The crisis being the pandemic, I'm assuming. Yes, yes. Yeah. I know like it's, it's definitely a stressor. Like it's, uh, an unfortunately it's like this ongoing stressor, like it's not like a, oh, you know, like it's trans it's transient and it's only lasting like a month or two, which is in the early days of the pandemic. I was like, oh, I'm sure it'll be fine. Like
Speaker 3 00:25:18 I know exactly. And yet we're still, we're still ongoing. It's just, yeah. Anyway, but I don't know. It's, it's, uh, kind of sad and I think like the other, and while, I mean, seminar, we're talking about this, but like, I think what bothers me about like mental health issues and like their treatment in general. I mean, other than the fact that so much of it has to be done out of pocket for so many people. Yeah. Like, and especially in Canada, like it's different from different, like different among different provinces. Like some in some provinces, the province will pay for some of the sessions that you might have with like with a psychotherapist or a psychiatrist or whatever. In other provinces you're kind of Sol, it's like, oh, sorry, like, no, this is on you. You're going to have to like pay for it all, you know?
Speaker 3 00:26:03 So, and it can be expensive. Right. So, um, I mean, so that's one of the things that bothers me, but then the other thing that bothers me is like this push to like, for it to be like the individual's problem, it's just like, oh, you should practice self care. And, um, you know, like take a bath or take a, take a long walk. Yeah. Like it's just like, fuck off. Like, I mean, yeah, those are all good things, but that's like, oh, I'm having a mild bout of like, you know, like I'm just in a bad mood today. Yeah. I'll, walk's going to be fine, but like I have chronic, you know what I mean? Like I have chronic, right?
Speaker 2 00:26:43 Yeah. Like, and it's, and it's not like, um, you're, you know, a lot of people are doing those, right. Like, I mean, I know I'll speak for you Shiv, but you and I are both typed to go get massages or some kind of quote unquote self-care things, but it is chronic because you know, it's not going away. So, but you know, it's interesting you bring up the cost factor because mental health commission, they did a study and apparently the economic cost of mental illnesses this year, uh, is projected to be, to reach, um, $80 billion.
Speaker 3 00:27:21 See, I mean, it has an economic impact, right.
Speaker 2 00:27:24 Canadians, um, spend approx are going to spend approximately 950 million on, um, in private, on psychologists and alone in private practice. So, and they'll pay 30% of this out of pocket, like you said, so the remainder is going to be through like say, um, you know, your employee insurance plans that is assuming a, you take advantage of it B that you actually have a job that covers.
Speaker 3 00:27:56 Yeah, exactly. And I think this is that like, some of us don't, some of us are simply, self-employed like, you know what I mean? Like, uh, so it's coming out of pocket anyway, you know? And like, and yeah. And that's like a big economic impact for something that can be a chronic situation. Like I, yeah. I don't know. I'm just, I, I just don't, I just don't like this whole fobbing things off to the individual. There's only so much every time.
Speaker 2 00:28:21 Yeah. Yeah. And you're right. Like I would actually say yes, definitely. You know, take time for your health and exercise and diet and self-care, I know you hate, but I don't know what else to call it, but yeah. I think that no, yes. For us, like we really should, but you're right. Like, I feel like institutionally there should be other mechanisms in place to support those decisions. Um, like don't just tell your employees, like, you know, oh, take, you know, log off at five, if, you know, there's a culture of that actually not being in practice. So don't just say it preach it, but actually Don exactly.
Speaker 3 00:29:05 For sure. Because the thing is, is like, yeah, sure, fine. You know, you can tell people to do that, but then is it just lip service? Are you then going to penalize that person when it comes to promotion? Because this is like, oh, they didn't actually put in enough FaceTime or, you know, they didn't actually logging enough hours or whatever it is, you know? So, and I mean like, yeah, like, and I find these like work workplace initiatives where they like try to quote, promote like healthy living or wellness. Like I find so much of it, like so much of it, it feels kind of like BS. It's kind of like one of these things where it's just like, oh, we're just going to tick it off. That actually like care about our employees because we've offered it. It's not our fault that they don't take it up. Like, you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 00:29:47 Yeah. I know. I know. And I know it's, it's hard to, to create programming, you know, especially for larger organizations and stuff like that, but, but you make a good point is that, you know, how can you create these kinds of initiatives in a way that your employees a know about them? Um, B they feel comfortable leaning into those initiatives.
Speaker 3 00:30:13 That's the other thing is there's the other
Speaker 2 00:30:14 Piece, because you actually raised a good point. Like, what if people are like, worried that, oh my gosh, if I take my sick leave, even though I'm entitled to it, that's actually one of my benefits. Right. What if that I'm seen as weak or not being able to do my job or, you know, um, it reflects poorly on me. So I'm wondering if those are the kinds of thoughts that people might be going that might be going through people's heads.
Speaker 3 00:30:39 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And the thing is, is that like, and I think this is the one good thing that came out of the pandemic, um, which is that like, people don't question sick days anymore. Cause like for a while people were like, do you have a doctor's note for that? Cause no,
Speaker 2 00:30:56 Really
Speaker 3 00:30:57 In some institutions they would, they would be like, you take a sick day and then they'd be like, mm, we need to see whether or not your actions and yeah. Like, yeah. And, and I'm
Speaker 2 00:31:08 Lucky that way.
Speaker 3 00:31:10 Yeah. But like, but I mean, I think I have a feeling it's more prevalent in the U S than in Canada, but like, that was a thing. And so then now with COVID they're like, no, you don't need to actually like give me a doctor's note every single time you're sick, you know? So like in some ways that's good. So if you actually need a mental health day, you can just take it, you know, as opposed as opposed to like having to like finagle a doctor's note for when you were feeling like shit and you couldn't actually function at work, you know, like, yeah. So yeah,
Speaker 2 00:31:45 This burnout though. So, so what are some of the things we can do? So well, what about meditation? Do you, have you tried that? Do you find it helpful in any way?
Speaker 3 00:31:59 No, I know you
Speaker 2 00:31:59 Have though. Um, I have, yes. And there have been times when I've found it helpful. Um, but clearly it's, it hasn't helped me achieve some, you know, manage the chronic burnout feeling, but there have been moments where I've been feeling frazzled, um, in that moment. So I've done a couple of meditation sessions, like a three minute, five minute, like, you know, or the deep breath work, which I will, I won't lie, does help. And, and I actually did something, which I didn't realize was a thing until recently, but I would take like a glass cold water or ice, you know, an ice pack and just sort of hold it to my neck or I, so, but turns out that there is some, it's something called tipping, the temperature, and it's something that people do to self-regulate themselves when they're actually feeling out of control. So it actually helps calm you down.
Speaker 2 00:33:01 Oh, that's fine. I was like, I wasn't doing it, doing it. That was kind of cool actually. Uh, when, uh, you know, someone, um, who, who is in the health science, uh, like in the health, um, mental health clubs industry, um, mentioned it, it was like, oh, that's called tipping the temperature. And I was like, what? And they're like, yep. You, you sort of use, you know, something cooled, like, you know, it's, you know, when sometimes like you feel flushed or something, and then you just run cold water or take a cold bath. And I've, I've, it's, it's something that I've done over the years, as whenever things have gotten felt like, oh my gosh, they're spiraling. And I need like something down. And, and so, but it's a thing. So I was kind of like annoyed too, that dammit. I thought I'd discovered something new, but not new. Um, it's something that that's an established, you know, methodology, I guess, or process what I call it. But, um, but anyway, the cool thing though, is that, that means that it's known to work. And so that might be something for other people to try out as well.
Speaker 3 00:34:16 Yeah. No, I mean, that's great. It's great that you found these like ways, but like, I mean, it's good for in the moment, like if you're having right. It's one of those things where it's just like, yeah. So I mean, not to knock these people who tell me like, oh no, I don't care. Right. Yeah. I get it. It's just that like, you're being like, yeah. Like, and like, just to reiterate the point, the thing is, is that like it's, it's not it's yeah. Self care is great for like very transient periods of like feeling, you know, out of control or whatever, like whatever you're feeling, but like,
Speaker 2 00:34:51 But you would just like the triggers not to be there in the first place. Exactly.
Speaker 3 00:34:57 Exactly. Or leg or for people to realize that these are triggers and that, Hey, maybe we can do something to like alleviate them, you know, like, anyway, I dunno. Like, I feel like it's just, I feel like part of me is just like, I don't know, is there a solution other than like more manpower, because like, it's all, it all comes down to like money, it's all money and like time and labor. Right. And it's just like, everybody wants to get something for nothing. And unfortunately that what it comes down to is the individual, because it's just like, yeah, we want to get the most out of you and this is how we're going to do it.
Speaker 2 00:35:38 Yeah. I made a comment recently in, in, in a, in a work meeting where I was trying to be like, I could feel the, that, you know, like the way I was speaking was just sharper than I had intended, but it had nothing to do with the person. And so, um, but I couldn't seem to stop myself from feeling agitated and annoyed, even though it again, had nothing to do with the person. Um, you know, and, and I, so then I actually did apologize, uh, in that meeting. And I said, I hope I know I'm sounding annoyed and, and, you know, probably a lot more rude than I intend to, you know, I'm, I just, I'm just trying to think of a way that I wish that I could stretch this 24 hours into 48 so I could get stuff done and not feel so useless and helpless all the time.
Speaker 3 00:36:35 Yeah. Yeah. And I think, and I think that's, that's the problem with burnout, right. Is just like, just feel, yeah. You just feel like out of control because there's just like too much to do and not enough time to do it in
Speaker 2 00:36:49 Not only that, even the easy things seem hard, all of a sudden, right? Like, it's like, I know that, Hey, there are some things I could just knock them out of my list. Like, I'm a list maker, you know, this, I have my agendas and my planners and I just can't like something that would normally take me 15 minutes takes me 45. Yeah. Um, so then that, you know, has that compounding effect of being, making my list get longer and longer and longer. And then I just feel more and more frazzled. So then I get more and more anxious. And then that just delays me further. You know, what I'm dealing with right now.
Speaker 3 00:37:31 I know it's like, it's like a total catch 22 and it's just, yeah. And it's, I don't know. Like I, and the funny thing is, is like I do read, like, I do read these things on like burnout and how to like prevent them and stuff like that. But I just feel that they're not, I just don't know. I don't, I just don't find that they're like super, super helpful. Like I just find, yeah, it's just, I don't know. I'm just, I'm just like, it's the work culture and there's no way around the work culture.
Speaker 2 00:38:08 Nope. Maybe we should just move to like Europe or something.
Speaker 3 00:38:13 Oh my God. I know. It's so funny. Like, I, I, uh, well, I hope, I hope my friend doesn't get pissed off because like I out him, but I have this friend he's like, um, he's from the states. And he went to the Navy. He went to the Netherlands in order to, no, no, sorry, not the Netherlands. He went to Denmark, um, uh, to be part of academics and like, they are fucking militant about their vacation.
Speaker 2 00:38:37 Like nice.
Speaker 3 00:38:42 So, yeah. Cause he was complaining to me. It's funny. I know, I know. I know. I know he's going to be so mad.
Speaker 2 00:38:48 He was complaining.
Speaker 3 00:38:50 So he was like complaining to me because apparently he was like allowed six weeks vacation and like, but I mean, you know, coming from north America and having this, what
Speaker 2 00:39:01 Six weeks,
Speaker 3 00:39:02 Six weeks it was mandated. He liked. And he like, I think everybody got it. Like, it wasn't like a, it wasn't like a, oh, you worked up to six weeks. Like, I think you just like came in, you got the job, you are automatically had six weeks. So anyway. Yeah. So then he was like, but you know, he comes from north America and he's like been inculcated with our work culture. And so, you know, he had shit to do and papers to publish and manuscripts, you know, books to write and whatnot. And so he was just like, well, I don't need all this vacation. So he would like not take his vacation
Speaker 2 00:39:33 And just delay it and I'll take it after,
Speaker 3 00:39:37 After I'm done. Yeah, exactly. And so like people had a, had a talking to with him, they were like, you're not taking your vacation. You need to start taking your vacation.
Speaker 2 00:39:52 That's amazing. I love that. I've done that right. Where I want to take time off, but I'm like, but I I'm like, but if I take time off now I'll only be worried about this deadline or this deliverable or whatever I'm working on. Right. Yeah. So might as well just finish this and then I'll go on vacation. Right. But then by that time, something new pops up. Yeah. And then I delayed that and you know, next thing you know, I have, um, a lot of vacation time.
Speaker 3 00:40:22 I know. And then you're taking them all at the end. Right. You're just like, oh,
Speaker 2 00:40:26 But then I always end up having rollover, you know, and, or, um, you know, threat of loss. And then I'm like, but I don't know when to take this. And then you end up taking them at like the most inappropriate, random time when you're not even doing anything fun. You know? And it's, it's not even a vacation at that point. Yeah. For sure. It just feels forced on you.
Speaker 3 00:40:46 Yeah. Oh yeah. And that's the other thing that I want to complain about with the pandemic is just like travel used to be my like outlet because you can cause like when you're gone, nobody can reach you. They're just kind of like, sorry, I'm in fucking, like I'm in fucking Japan. You can't touch me here. You know? Like,
Speaker 2 00:41:07 Well I probably doesn't work. Sorry.
Speaker 3 00:41:12 And so, but like now, like they're, you can't travel anywhere and you're yeah. Like seriously, like during the pandemic, when I took vacation, I would work on my vacations. Cause it was just like, well, I'm not doing anything I'm here. I might as well continue, which is the worst,
Speaker 2 00:41:28 The worst. And okay. I'm going to say something. That's probably about this pandemic word sample. Okay. Okay. I know a lot of people love working from home. Um, and, and I get it like it's probably because they've actually cut down on their commute to time and commute costs and all of that. Um, and this I'm going to speak selflessly because that's the whole point of this mental health, but I am not a fan because to me now my home, which was my sanctuary. Yeah. It has become my workplace. Yeah. I don't like that. I can't unplug because, um, you know, I live in a shoe box. We all know this, we've covered this before, but in Toronto, um, you know, I live in a very small space and I am not like the price of quote unquote, rolling out of bed. And just starting with my laptop and working from home is not as appealing when, you know, I then have these blurred lines and like, you know, and I'm constantly working because even if I'm not working, I turn my laptop off.
Speaker 2 00:42:43 It's there. And I feel guilty because I'm like, well, it's not like I have somewhere to go. Cause things are shut down or whatever. Or especially when they were shut down, well, I might as well just finish and do something else. Yeah. And I get it, that's on me. I, uh, you know, I did this to myself, but I did do this to myself because my office is now in my home. In your house. Yeah, exactly. Like you cannot escape. Right. And so I, for one really miss that separation of work and home. Yeah. Like, you know, maybe if I had a giant McMansion where I was like, yeah, I have this beautiful ocean, like ocean view office and the corner of like my third wing, then I have a 17 acre property and I can actually, my office gets me 17 minutes to go from, you know, whatever. But right now, no, this is my living room. Exactly. I don't like it. I know that was my rant of the day. It's invalid rant. I totally, yeah. I can totally see. Cause I'm so tired of running into people. Everyone's like, who was like, I love working from home and I'm like, I'm like, if you must know, they're like, are you okay? I'm like, yes, I'm just smiling. But what you're seeing is my smile. While I try to make fists with my toe, plotting your murder.
Speaker 2 00:44:31 Gosh, not like
Speaker 3 00:44:32 This is too funny. And on that note, I think we should probably call it an episode. I feel like there's like a lot to unpack here and we can probably, I know. Right. I feel like we can probably do an entire second part to this because there's more that I want to talk about. Plus I want to, um, get into like signs of burnout and um, ways of combating it. Cause uh, yeah. Cause they feel bad about not getting into that portion of it.
Speaker 2 00:45:02 If we talk about the problems, we should also discuss potential solutions.
Speaker 3 00:45:06 Yeah, exactly. No,
Speaker 2 00:45:08 That's actually totally fair and um, makes a lot of sense to me. So yeah, I think we should definitely call it an episode.
Speaker 3 00:45:16 Sounds good. Um, so yeah, so everybody please write in with any, um, like any of your thoughts on this episode kind of, you know, things that you've been struggling with during this pandemic pre pandemic post pandemic, although we're not really pressed pandemic anyway, they could write in, uh, follow us on Insta. Yeah. And make sure that you rate and review us so that you can find out so that other people can find us, um, find our podcast and um, you know, be part of the community email asset. Does this make me look
[email protected] or find our social handles on our website? Does this make me look old.com and uh, yeah, we we'll touch base next week. Bye. Bye.
